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[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No" ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment" ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"" ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"", ">\n\nNah. They love that shit." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"", ">\n\nNah. They love that shit.", ">\n\nNope" ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"", ">\n\nNah. They love that shit.", ">\n\nNope", ">\n\nThey are ok with rapists, so liars shouldn't be an issue. Isn't it actually a prerequisite these days?" ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"", ">\n\nNah. They love that shit.", ">\n\nNope", ">\n\nThey are ok with rapists, so liars shouldn't be an issue. Isn't it actually a prerequisite these days?", ">\n\nThey’ll give him a medal. For lying and getting away with it. Crime does pay out well if you’re a republican" ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"", ">\n\nNah. They love that shit.", ">\n\nNope", ">\n\nThey are ok with rapists, so liars shouldn't be an issue. Isn't it actually a prerequisite these days?", ">\n\nThey’ll give him a medal. For lying and getting away with it. Crime does pay out well if you’re a republican", ">\n\nthe most important thing is that he is seated and votes for McCarthy. Maybe now some are grumbling but it is only because it is too late to stop him from taking office. IMO of course. Unless there is some huge break about where he got his money from some serious bad guy, he is home free as is McCarthy" ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"", ">\n\nNah. They love that shit.", ">\n\nNope", ">\n\nThey are ok with rapists, so liars shouldn't be an issue. Isn't it actually a prerequisite these days?", ">\n\nThey’ll give him a medal. For lying and getting away with it. Crime does pay out well if you’re a republican", ">\n\nthe most important thing is that he is seated and votes for McCarthy. Maybe now some are grumbling but it is only because it is too late to stop him from taking office. IMO of course. Unless there is some huge break about where he got his money from some serious bad guy, he is home free as is McCarthy", ">\n\nFox News said the voters elected him … we have to live with it" ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"", ">\n\nNah. They love that shit.", ">\n\nNope", ">\n\nThey are ok with rapists, so liars shouldn't be an issue. Isn't it actually a prerequisite these days?", ">\n\nThey’ll give him a medal. For lying and getting away with it. Crime does pay out well if you’re a republican", ">\n\nthe most important thing is that he is seated and votes for McCarthy. Maybe now some are grumbling but it is only because it is too late to stop him from taking office. IMO of course. Unless there is some huge break about where he got his money from some serious bad guy, he is home free as is McCarthy", ">\n\nFox News said the voters elected him … we have to live with it", ">\n\nSantos: hey, I’ll help with the speaker vote. \nMost Republicans: santos did nothing wrong. Leave him alone." ]

[ "Ha. No. \nRepublicans will not (and cannot) hold Santos accountable for his blatant lies. To do so would mean they're holding him to some objective truth and Republicans have done everything in their power over the last decade to actively destroy faith in such a thing. \nLook no further than any number of lies or moral failings discovered every. fucking. day. by Republican politicians including, but not limited to, literal criminal activity that have resulted in zero consequences for the perpetrators. \nThere are no \"good\" Republicans. You cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\". You can only be complicit.", ">\n\n\nYou cannot be a member of the party actively working against democracy and attempting to erode the concept of objective reality and be \"good\".\n\nThe voters elected the guy. This is what democracy looks like. What you really should be arguing is that, since the GOP is usually against democracy, \"what's so wrong with also being anti-democratic in this instance also?\"", ">\n\nThe house can choose not to sit him, that's actually a real thing in our laws, but the gop won't do it. So that's out. They should, but they won't.", ">\n\n\nthat's actually a real thing in our law\n\nWhere did you get that idea?\nSee Wikipedia:\n\nHowever, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Powell v. McCormack (1969), limited the powers of the Congress to refuse to seat an elected member to when the individual does not meet the specific constitutional requirements of age, citizenship or residency.", ">\n\nArticle 1, section 5, clause 2 of the constitution. Look it up. They can get rid of him once he arrives. I was sort of off on the refuse to seat thing, but basically correct. Once he is there he can be removed. He can be kicked off committees or not put on them at all, too.", ">\n\nThe newly controlled Republican House will not get ride of him at all. Because he is a Republican.", ">\n\nExactly. He’s a vote.", ">\n\nBut he's a warm body who will likely vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker, so you know Kevin's okay with him.", ">\n\nI wonder if he had to pledge his fealty to Kevin in order for Kevin not to shun him.", ">\n\nIf Santos doesn't get recalled in some manner, none of it matters.", ">\n\nSadly, we can’t recall a federal representative. No mechanism for that exist. I highly doubt Congress will create a law that gives the people the power to recall Congress members when they are unhappy with their representatives performance.\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.", ">\n\n\nHe will most likely need to resign from all the pressure at some point or another major revelation that will force him out, maybe something to do with his tax filings.\n\nSeeing how republicans are absolutely immune to shame, I seriously doubt that happens.", ">\n\nWould a party run by liars and fueled by lies hold a fellow liar accountable? Nope, they have no morals or dignity, and only care that having another Republican seat gives them more power. Herschel was the same type of Liar, and was actually criminal and violent, and they sent their best to hold his hand at every opportunity. GOPathetic.", ">\n\nI mean after their dismal performance in the midterms, fueled by the BS-MAGA-Election-Denying Candidates endorsed by Trump…GOP knows they should condemn BUT leadership will stay quiet cuz they need his vote. \nThere is one member from a flipped NY district that is speaking out I think cuz he knows he’s in a district that can easily go dem if he says nada", ">\n\nThe conservative sub was about half comments saying \"this looks bad, how can we trust him for anything?\" and half \"He shouldn't step down becasue dems play dirty so we should too and also the vote in the house is slim and we can't lose his.\" \n:/", ">\n\nEthics, integrity, honor, empathy, and fortitude are what conservatives pretend to project.\nConservative lies, deception, racism, fascism, dishonor and misinformation are how they justify equality and equity.", ">\n\nMinus the fame, George has many of the same fake qualities as DJT that Republicans love.", ">\n\nWill the press ever stop asking if republicans are finally going to do the right thing or take responsibility?", ">\n\nCorporate News is fair and balanced and not an obvious political 800-pound gorilla.", ">\n\nHad he been a dem, the pitchforks and torches would already be distributed amongst the GOP and Saber rattling about censure, no commitees, etc. would already have been promised. \nBlatant hypocrisy but at this point is anyone really surprised?", ">\n\nIf he was a dem he wouldn’t have made it on the ballot for the primary", ">\n\nhe's just really really weird lookin", ">\n\nI think the word repulsive works here. I get an instant visceral reaction every time I see that smarmy, dough-boy face. Same reaction that I get when the Orange Cheeto appears.", ">\n\nRepublicans, after all of this time, are not going to shown any signs of self-awareness, because morality is “woke.”", ">\n\nNo they really aren't. Not the ones that matter anyway.", ">\n\n\n... on Tuesday, Nick LaLota—a fellow Republican who just won a congressional seat on Long Island to the east of the New York district Santos won—called for a probe of his would-be colleague.", ">\n\nI still don't see what a probe is supposed accomplish. He lied, he admitted it.", ">\n\nThe probe can find out where the money really came from.", ">\n\nSome rich wall street guy? How is this surprising?", ">\n\nWould you believe at least some from a relative of a f'ing Russian oligarch who is close to Putin? Cuz yeah. That happened.", ">\n\nPersonally, I'm not a racist so I don't care whether he got money from a Slavic person or not. You may not know this, but there are actually 360 million Slavic people in the world and they don't all personally work for Putin, despite the common racist trope. Not all Jews are secretly loyal to Israel either, no matter what Kanye tells you!", ">\n\nThe only way the GOP will turn on Santos is if he comes out and says that he lied about being a Republican and is actually a Democrat.", ">\n\nTo be fair, they can't read all that well and probably think it's George Soros.", ">\n\nIf any are . . . BIG IF . . . then it is due to optics, not actions. Republicans do not give a fuck about republican lies, whether in degree, kind, or volume.", ">\n\nLol no. They will happily seat him.", ">\n\nI’ve pretty much only seen two types of takes from Republicans on this: \n\n\nHe should resign, and also LOL how did no one do a better job vetting their opposition in this race, as all of this would have presumably sunk his candidacy. \n\n\nHe should resign, but it’s not really that surprising if he doesn’t and this stuff blows over, because politicians lie about their past all the times in big and small ways and get passes on it: insert XYZ time Democrat lied. \n\n\nI haven’t seen a single take supporting him sincerely as if he’s some humble man who mixed up some details about his past accidentally.", ">\n\nRegarding number 1, don’t fall in the trap of letting the media get away with covering its tracks regarding how they didn’t uncover this story. It isn’t up to Democrats to do that and, besides, what difference would it have made? The media failed to do its job by conducting investigative reporting and is now trying to blame Democrats for their failures. Or, this is a novel idea, why didn’t the GOP vet their own guy?", ">\n\nOh, I don’t give any slack to journalists and the media. The vast majority of media produced in the mainstream is garbage and not proper journalism, and they absolutely should have found this out sooner.\nBut so should have Dems (and primary challenging Republicans) with proper opposition research, and so should have Republicans with proper candidate vetting.", ">\n\nThey are not and mostly they will be silent.", ">\n\nIt astounds me how this is the closest we'll get to them, possibly, pushing a member out. Gaetz, Boebert, Greene, Jordan...the list goes on with how many are absolutely disgusting within their party, but no, Santos is where they may draw the line. Maybe the lies are too blatant.", ">\n\nWell there was Madison Cawthorn, who of course was replaced with another fascist in his safely red district. But that was definitely a takedown job by the concerted forces of Murdoch and the RNC. God knows what was still waiting to come out there.", ">\n\nDoes it matter if he steps down or is removed now, or after appointed? What are the laws for replacing a representative in New York? Special election? Governor appointment? Could the GOP seat swing to Democrat?", ">\n\nSpecial election. I believe it wouldn't be until November.", ">\n\nIf they do, it's only to save face and not out of any real disdain for his lies.", ">\n\nNope.\nMorals do not exist in the party", ">\n\nOne of the problems with the top down nature of the Republican party is acting on these kinds of character flaws requires approval for disapproval.\nThe threat of getting primaried is an axe at the neck of all Republicans reducing their ability to act out of consience always looking to the party dads for direction.\nThis is the one thing that keeps the GOP from being replaced and in power even as a minority.", ">\n\nHe'll be fine until the 3rd. McCarthy needs his vote for Speaker. (He needs it for the house in general but he really only cares about being Speaker.)", ">\n\nAll he wants for his birthday is a cake with Sarah Huckabee Sanders jumping out of the top wearing his grandma’s mumu. \nHe has his favourite liars picked the same way other people pick teams during March Madness.", ">\n\nRepublicans are not going to force this liar to resign with such a slim house majority. Nothing is going to happen. All I learned is that I should have lied more in life.", ">\n\nBetteridge's Law of Headlines says NO", ">\n\nWhen the headline is a question the answer is always no.", ">\n\nI want to know who bank rolled this guy.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nThey wouldn’t turn on him for lying. They might turn on him for his sexuality.", ">\n\nThe dude looks unhinged as fuck every time I see a photo of him. Like, he’s not sure how to properly smile, and is just kinda making a face that sorta resembles a smile. \nThe smile never reaches his eyes, Santos has got to have some other mental issues other than just being a pathological liar. Dude’s likely dangerous.", ">\n\nForget all the stuff that has come out. I don’t trust him because his ears were clearly put on upside down.", ">\n\nFinally? That’s lightning quick compared to 6-1/2 years.", ">\n\nThey have probably conducted their own investigation and have come to the conclusion that he is screwed. They do not want to be in the blast radius when he goes down", ">\n\ni want him to stay , become the \" classclown \". this is hilarious. \nits literally a republican using \" Bourgeois \" as an argument against his opponents. doesnt get any better.", ">\n\nIf nothing happens, we have a way to undermine the GOP. Run democrats for GOP seats, where they blatantly lie about their positions and party during their campaign. They clearly don’t care about lying about positions or background - see santos and their Supreme Court appointees.\nI have a feeling they’ll suddenly care about if Democrats do it.", ">\n\n\"You're late to the party.\"\n- Kyrsten Sinema", ">\n\nWe can only hope they are willing to send a signal that it is not ok to be false... \nFeedback is neccessary", ">\n\nPolice their own? \nNope, they want the outrage so high that the Democrats do their work for them, while they make it an up hill battle, then act like victims for it.\nCome on Democrats, burn your political capital on a weasily junior representative so that the house can put beat you over the head on the omnibus bill and submit bills about ending Obamacare.", ">\n\nNo. Kevin McCarthy needs his vote to be speaker. Secondly that district is competitive if an special election were held it could go to dems, reps will never chance it.", ">\n\nSo, if this process is initiated, it may take lots of time before 2/3 of the members might agree (as if they ever would). In the interim, the reported member can be refused membership to any committees / subcommittees ... and can be left to stare at the gonads of their secretary.\nBUT, it appears the reported member can still vote on any bills!", ">\n\n\nAre Republicans Finally Starting to Turn on Liar-Elect George Santos?\n\nYeah, right. That's a good one. The GQP will only really turn on him once they have no use for him anymore. But he's certainly making the party of world-class hypocrites and liars look even worse than they already are.", ">\n\nHe’s their new favorite scumbag", ">\n\nTo answer the question: probably not.", ">\n\nI’m starting to wonder if he actually exists.", ">\n\nHe’s got a very odd, pale purple/brown/puce/green tinge to his complexion and unnaturally white teeth; a la Kari Lake. Did they get their glamour shots done at the same time using a groupon?", ">\n\nIf you hold Santos to account for his lying what about Trump, Desantis, Mitch McConnell, Greg Abbott, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, \nIn fact which Republicans couldn’t be criticised for lying for political advantage..", ">\n\nWhy would they?\nSantos is a living, breathing example of how inclusive & tolerant the modern Republican Party is...this isn't your grandpa's GOP, anymore.\nAs long as you toe the Party line with respect to policy, and are a \"team player\", you can be gay (as long as your not a \"groomer\"), a liar, and pretend to be whatever ethnicity you want...this is about Freedom!", ">\n\nWatch them not force him to resign. Compare with what gillebrand did to franken", ">\n\nIs he wearing makeup? He looks like Marcy D’arcy", ">\n\nCongress is full of clowns, qualifications and experience clearly don't matter, not sure why this is outrageous.", ">\n\nThey'll feign outrage & do nothing, as usual..", ">\n\nI don’t know… what has MTG told McCarthy say about it ?", ">\n\nHe's been turned on by Republicans for awhile.", ">\n\nWhy is dude wearing so much fucking makeup. Looks ridiculous", ">\n\nI don’t get why they’d stick their necks out for this loser. Censure him, take him off any committees, and primary him with a somewhat vetted candidate.", ">\n\nNope.\nEver since Reagan's days Republicans do not criticize other Republicans except when actively campaigning agains them (primaries and such). Once that's over with, no Republican can ever do any wrong in the eyes of other Republicans.", ">\n\nNot when Qevin needs his vote for speaker, they won't.", ">\n\nNarrator: No", ">\n\nThe answer is probably a no. The same thing is happening with Santos as what the Republicans did with Trump, deny and look away.", ">\n\nNo.", ">\n\nA few might, the rest will whistle and pretend its fake news.", ">\n\nIf you have to ask, then they have not. There's still time, though.", ">\n\nI really wish the press would stop referring to \"stop the steal\" or follow it with \"based on unproven claims\" and just start referring to it as \"Hillbilly Trumpspringa\" or the \"Continue the Grift\" rally.\nSaying \"unproven claims\" implies, for some fuckwits, that the claims are \"yet to be proven\" and that Trump will be reinstated any day now if they just donate enough.", ">\n\nDoubt it, he’s what the Republican Party is now. Him Ron and a lot of others are exactly the same but slightly different levels.", ">\n\nThis is going to be the story that keeps on giving for the Democratic party. Santos will never again be able to say anything without it being fact checked by every news outlet in America. No Republican can take that kind of scrutiny. This is SOP when dealing with Democrats but a new experience for a Republican.", ">\n\nI fucking doubt it, bet some idiot will claim he has fresh ideas because he’s not part of the establishment", ">\n\nThere is an adage, when a headline asks a question, the answer is almost always no.\nThis is a great example of that. And it worked; I clicked on it. One GOP guy is not \"Republicans.\"", ">\n\nNah. They love that shit.", ">\n\nNope", ">\n\nThey are ok with rapists, so liars shouldn't be an issue. Isn't it actually a prerequisite these days?", ">\n\nThey’ll give him a medal. For lying and getting away with it. Crime does pay out well if you’re a republican", ">\n\nthe most important thing is that he is seated and votes for McCarthy. Maybe now some are grumbling but it is only because it is too late to stop him from taking office. IMO of course. Unless there is some huge break about where he got his money from some serious bad guy, he is home free as is McCarthy", ">\n\nFox News said the voters elected him … we have to live with it", ">\n\nSantos: hey, I’ll help with the speaker vote. \nMost Republicans: santos did nothing wrong. Leave him alone.", ">\n\nMcCarthy will not do anything that would lessen his majority and hurt his chances of being elected Speaker." ]

[]

[ "What's wrong with it? Whatever it is, I can't see how what version of Windows you have has to do with it." ]

[]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LiteratureSentiment (2∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LiteratureSentiment (2∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI think your view is by definition true of any monolith. \nSome conservatives actually support strict gun laws. \nSome Liberals actually support privatization of specific industries. \nSome Christians heavily support LGBT.\nWhat would change your view? You even note that some individuals do have bad parents." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LiteratureSentiment (2∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI think your view is by definition true of any monolith. \nSome conservatives actually support strict gun laws. \nSome Liberals actually support privatization of specific industries. \nSome Christians heavily support LGBT.\nWhat would change your view? You even note that some individuals do have bad parents.", ">\n\n!" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LiteratureSentiment (2∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI think your view is by definition true of any monolith. \nSome conservatives actually support strict gun laws. \nSome Liberals actually support privatization of specific industries. \nSome Christians heavily support LGBT.\nWhat would change your view? You even note that some individuals do have bad parents.", ">\n\n!", ">\n\nEven if a parent isn't intentionally abusive they can inflict a lot of damage.\nI'm not gonna pretend that literally no one over dramatizes their childhood trauma, but I think people who do are in the minority.\nMost times, an individual's perception of what their childhood was like and what trauma they carry as a result is correct. No one else, not even their parents or siblings or closest friends, can know what their childhood was like from their own point of view." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LiteratureSentiment (2∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI think your view is by definition true of any monolith. \nSome conservatives actually support strict gun laws. \nSome Liberals actually support privatization of specific industries. \nSome Christians heavily support LGBT.\nWhat would change your view? You even note that some individuals do have bad parents.", ">\n\n!", ">\n\nEven if a parent isn't intentionally abusive they can inflict a lot of damage.\nI'm not gonna pretend that literally no one over dramatizes their childhood trauma, but I think people who do are in the minority.\nMost times, an individual's perception of what their childhood was like and what trauma they carry as a result is correct. No one else, not even their parents or siblings or closest friends, can know what their childhood was like from their own point of view.", ">\n\nYeah no one can tell your experience for ya but at the same time some people are unreliable narrators like they only focus on the good and so rarely mention the good, or maybe miss out so details that they were in the wrong, or play up how aggressive or bad their parents were. !delta" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LiteratureSentiment (2∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI think your view is by definition true of any monolith. \nSome conservatives actually support strict gun laws. \nSome Liberals actually support privatization of specific industries. \nSome Christians heavily support LGBT.\nWhat would change your view? You even note that some individuals do have bad parents.", ">\n\n!", ">\n\nEven if a parent isn't intentionally abusive they can inflict a lot of damage.\nI'm not gonna pretend that literally no one over dramatizes their childhood trauma, but I think people who do are in the minority.\nMost times, an individual's perception of what their childhood was like and what trauma they carry as a result is correct. No one else, not even their parents or siblings or closest friends, can know what their childhood was like from their own point of view.", ">\n\nYeah no one can tell your experience for ya but at the same time some people are unreliable narrators like they only focus on the good and so rarely mention the good, or maybe miss out so details that they were in the wrong, or play up how aggressive or bad their parents were. !delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ImpossibleSquish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LiteratureSentiment (2∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI think your view is by definition true of any monolith. \nSome conservatives actually support strict gun laws. \nSome Liberals actually support privatization of specific industries. \nSome Christians heavily support LGBT.\nWhat would change your view? You even note that some individuals do have bad parents.", ">\n\n!", ">\n\nEven if a parent isn't intentionally abusive they can inflict a lot of damage.\nI'm not gonna pretend that literally no one over dramatizes their childhood trauma, but I think people who do are in the minority.\nMost times, an individual's perception of what their childhood was like and what trauma they carry as a result is correct. No one else, not even their parents or siblings or closest friends, can know what their childhood was like from their own point of view.", ">\n\nYeah no one can tell your experience for ya but at the same time some people are unreliable narrators like they only focus on the good and so rarely mention the good, or maybe miss out so details that they were in the wrong, or play up how aggressive or bad their parents were. !delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ImpossibleSquish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nMaybe they just hate how things turn out for them." ]

[ "/u/ViewOk4348 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI don't think you can easily change a view that relates to 'some people'.\nIt can be summarized as 'some people are overly dramatic'. Hard to argue that.\nIf you'd have said 'CMV: everyone overdramatizes how bad their parents were', then there'd be a discussion. A naff one, but better than this.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nIs this supposed to be a delta? If your view has been changed, you need to add the word delta directly after the !, no space between", ">\n\nI agree, But I think this issue is not the childhood mistakes but the parents still have the behaviors which make it difficult to relate. And this makes it difficult to connect and repair the relationship. Being a parent now I understand a lot of their decisions which I thought were mistakes, I wouldn’t have made the same choice but I understand why they did and “forgive” them for it\nFor example if your parents were very strict, and religious growing up. Now as a middle aged adult you still “get in trouble” for doing something against their views And they force their religious view onto you and your children. I think it’s not so much the mistakes they made, it’s the continual impact of them which stops the relationship developing \nThe true test of a successful parent is do the children want/chose to hang out with you? And can they tell you anything? If this isn’t happening then it’s probably not the mistakes from childhood, it’s likely the parents still have this behavior and the damage from the childhood makes it harder to form a relationship. Always being careful which what you say when your around your parents is not a good base for a relationsip", ">\n\nYeah you are right. How well you were as a parent is partly reflected on how willing your kids are to spend time with you as they grow into their own person. \nIt’s just I think sometimes you have to compromise, like yeah it isn’t great that I can’t talk freely around my parents to a degree but I still feel like there can be a bond and we don’t have to be strangers to each other.\n!", ">\n\nYeah I know what you mean, I think there will always be a generation gap because your parents grew up in a different time, and that means there are certain things which you want see eye to eye on but you should be able to have a discussion and agree to disagree. \nDo you have a reason for posting this? Did something happen which you had to forgive or are you just sick of people complaining? \nAt a certain age I think the parents need to move from a authority figure to a mentor, someone who offers advice and guides their kids. If the parents dont do this it causes a poor relationship which leads to “overdramatized “", ">\n\nA lot happened that I forgave/forgiving and I am also tired of my friend complaining too I guess. \nWholeheartedly agree that at one point parents should accept that they are a mentor and no longer an authority figure! \nAlso if your parents are control freaks who try to control your life even when you fully matured and started a life of your own then yeah there will be some kind of barrier between both parties. \nBut for some reason I feel when parents are a bit controlling over their teens I very much understand their actions. I am in no way saying it is healthy, but at some point you realize that they are trying to protect you from things they fear but can’t really find it in themselves to explain I guess? Also sometimes kids could be infuriating so parents are put in positions were they become really hurtful, I used to blame my parents for my infuriating actions cuz they have similar attributes but you can’t change anyone but yourself at the end of the day I guess", ">\n\nAlso do tell if I started deviating from the main argument. My head is always all over the place and I tend to do that a lot.", ">\n\nThis view is so broadly stated as to be almost vacuously true. What sort of argument or evidence do you think would change your view here?", ">\n\nSome people overdramatize how bad their parents are, some people underdramatize how bad their parents are. Almost any some statement you make will be accurate. \nYou need to define what you mean by badness. Some obvious bad things.\n\n\nIs it ok to be gay around them? Like whether you are or not, are they openly homophobic? Are they openly racist against a race? Are they openly sexist? \n\n\nDid they keep you fed, avoid many insults, avoid beating you, and generally maintain the basic level of parenting that was needed?\n\n\nDid they avoid treating their mental illness or your mental illness in whatever way was manageable with their finances?\n\n\nDid they prepare you for a financially solvent life, either by teaching you and exposing you to enough difficulty and not being controlling so you can learn to survive, or by guiding you very carefully to a company job?\n\n\nThat's the basics I would want from all parents. Did your parents do that?", ">\n\nThese are really great deciding factors!! \nUm they didn’t but I think we still can have a good relationship despite this?", ">\n\nYou can try and have a good relationship, but if they are not meeting these very basic standards, standards which are super easy to meet and most people do meet, then it's fine critiquing them as bad parents. They are actually being bad parents.", ">\n\nIs it really that easy? \n1.I can never come out to my parents because they are religious and from a conservative country, I don’t hate them for it ( maybe because I am still questioning and not totally sure) because these are years of growing up on a principal they consider a base principal. It takes so much effort and time to unlearn that especially since they are old I don’t expect them to be able to disrupt the little peace they want to have towards the last 20 years or their lives (god know how much younger and more open I am but still had to unlearn some prejudice, still working on it too) \nThey are a bit sexist but they did tone down lots of their views on some things over the years so I am proud of them for that (tbh they are less extreme than quite a number of the parents here) \n2,3 and 4 I think are met for the most part.", ">\n\nMost religious people I've met, including ones who don't like homosexuality much, aren't openly homophobic. They might tell their child that their homosexual experiences are a phase and they're waiting for them to settle down, but they don't try to make their children afraid of revealing that, because being openly rude is counterproductive and wrong.\nMore subtle sexism and homophobia isn't a surprise, but if they can't contain open hate enough that you can't come out, it's not dramatic criticizing them.", ">\n\nYeah I guess if they are holding you back from being comfortable then you have the right to criticize them !delta \nI still think maybe this isn’t a big enough reason to lose contact with them", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nepene (201∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nTeens usually feel like they know better about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are always wrong.\nAs a teen my parents told me often that my opinion didn't count because I wasn't an adult, but looking back I was right about a lot of things, they just didn't want to admit it. I don't have much contact with them now I have the option not to.", ">\n\nI hope that you are healing from the shit the did! But like I am sure this was only the tip of the iceberg, if you are choosing to cut them off, they must have been more or less uncaring parents who valued control over actually raising a kid.", ">\n\nThat wasn't the specific issue with them, but there certainly were issues. I was always surprised when friends of mine told me about things their parents had done and they hadn't cut them off. I realised that I just didn't have the kind of connection to my parents that most seem to.", ">\n\nIf it was all bad and there was nothing tolerable/good about there presence, then good for ya for cutting them off", ">\n\nI'd say it's rarely /all/ bad, family dynamics are complicated. Even now there's things I miss, but my father was violent with me growing up, and when he threatened one of my kids that was the last time he saw any of us.", ">\n\nWill Weaton's idea of horrific child abuse is having stage parents.", ">\n\nI mean it is some form of child abuse I think. Lots of stage moms push their kids to do somethings they don’t even want to do, they practically groom them (see toddlers and tiaras for example). A parent can be supportive of their child’s acting career. But I think stage parents are not the supportive one, but the ones living through their children and asking them to meet impossible expectations", ">\n\nBut of course everything in life is shades of gray. Most parents are ok, but lose their temper some times, maybe are a bit neglectful once in a while, just because of life and personal problems. The other side of the spectrum is the substantial number of people who are sexually abused, frequently beaten, badly neglected, etc. These two ends of the spectrum really are different, and Weaton seems to be counting normal imperfect parenting as the same as the very worst that some kids have to live through.", ">\n\nI love how you explained it!! \nI have no qualms that the end of the spectrum of sexually, verbally or emotionally abused children have the full right to completely cut off their parents. \nBut somewhere in the grey areas, where normal imperfect parents lie. Ones who lost their shit because of how their kid was blatantly getting into stuff that they consider harmful , ones who at one point had to deal with so much that they neglected some of their children’s needs, ones who unknowingly shouldered some responsibility onto their children too early, ones who misunderstood their children’s needs. I think these are parents that get to stay in your life, because they aren’t utterly bad people. Even if they never apologize for what happened, as time goes on they have something to offer, right?\n!delta", ">\n\nOf course some people do but in my case I under-dramatized the severity of the abuse because I was worried about looking like one of those people and it led to awful outcomes.", ">\n\nI am sorry to hear that, hope you are in a better place", ">\n\nMy parents aren't evil deities, they're people who can be understood. I generally know how my parents got the way they are, and they do love me, but they aren't even close to good. \nI'm not getting into specifics, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that at least one of my parents has no place in my life, and the other comes as a package deal. \nI'm not gonna change your main view, but you should understand that abusive parents aren't uncaring monsters who spawned from hell, they're flawed people who cause extrenuous damage to their children's mental well-being.", ">\n\nI sending you lots of love and hoping you heal from what they did! \nI am just so confused at which point do parents become abusive assholes rather than people who don’t know what they are doing so cause some damage because of their rough round the edges approach.", ">\n\nMy parents aren’t evil, then a genuinely good people, but they still left me fucked up with deep trauma that I carry into adulthood in no small part because of my fucked up evangleical childhood, and my mother’s clearly undiagnosed mental illness, and the insanity that resulted because of that.\nI am a deeply broken person because of it. Yet I still had loving parents, far better than most in many regards.\nBut I still ended up fucked up in the end because of the evangelical bullshit and my mother’s insanity.\nDoes that make me “over dramatic” because I still carry so many wounds from the trauma during my childhood?", ">\n\nNo, not at all!\nIn my opinion you aren’t overdramatizing it because you did admit that your parents fucked up but that doesn’t negate the fact that they did love you and care about you. \nI have seen lots of my friends claim that their parents are evil shits that are out to ruin their life because of their parenting blunders ( which are admittedly pretty bad sometimes )", ">\n\nI come from a family of 10 kids. Depending which sibling you talk to my parents were saints or abusive or somewhere in between. They were consistent with expectations and discipline. No one was favorite. It's definitely perception and expectations. I saw they were stressed and so I didn't expect much attention or resources. Other siblings resent them for that. I wouldn't call them overly dramatic just not very realistic about their limitations.", ">\n\n!delta \nThat makes sense", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/dragonschool changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nSome? More like a good 80% of people online and in real life. All I hear and see is a mess of no contact, abuse, trauma, glad a parent died, spite…..usually boiling down to some fucking political disagreement or parents made them work and didn’t coddle them. \nObviously there are true exceptions, I personally know a few people with monstrous parents but MOST people bitching about the people that created and raised them are just petty resentful brats.", ">\n\nExactly. I feel like a lot of the parents aren’t as devilish as their kids make them out to be.", ">\n\nAnd in some ways I think that that's an obvious statement. People's perspective can be a fickle thing they might also dramaticize how good their parents are. Typically speaking it's the people that have kind of not the best parents that do the latter from my experience, but it is something that some people do as sort of a coping mechanism of getting older and trying to make the prospect of doing so seem better.", ">\n\n!delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/kindParodox changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nPeople definitely do it, but if it changes your view at all here: the big issue is that when kids are growing up, they don't have a lot of perspective about what is normal vs abusive behavior. Even as adults we sometimes lack that perspective. So when a kid feels like something is wrong with their parents, they're not just deciding to be willfully ignorant, they don't know any better usually and feel like things are unfair. And yeah kids are angsty and hormonal but if they feel that way and try to talk about it, parents should have the respect to hear what their kid says. Because the other side of the coin is people who grew up abused but don't ever really realize it. Parents are the whole world of a kid, the right and wrong. So to have the people who are your entire moral compass become figures who are wrong and do bad things is hard to comprehend. It goes both ways man and it's not coming from a bad place usually. People just don't get a lot of perspective.", ">\n\nYeah when you put it that way I guess it is normal not to understand what the reference should be to how good or bad your parents are. \n!delta", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/LiteratureSentiment (2∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nI think your view is by definition true of any monolith. \nSome conservatives actually support strict gun laws. \nSome Liberals actually support privatization of specific industries. \nSome Christians heavily support LGBT.\nWhat would change your view? You even note that some individuals do have bad parents.", ">\n\n!", ">\n\nEven if a parent isn't intentionally abusive they can inflict a lot of damage.\nI'm not gonna pretend that literally no one over dramatizes their childhood trauma, but I think people who do are in the minority.\nMost times, an individual's perception of what their childhood was like and what trauma they carry as a result is correct. No one else, not even their parents or siblings or closest friends, can know what their childhood was like from their own point of view.", ">\n\nYeah no one can tell your experience for ya but at the same time some people are unreliable narrators like they only focus on the good and so rarely mention the good, or maybe miss out so details that they were in the wrong, or play up how aggressive or bad their parents were. !delta", ">\n\nThis delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ImpossibleSquish changed your view (comment rule 4).\nDeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nMaybe they just hate how things turn out for them.", ">\n\nDon’t we all at one point feel like that because of one thing or the other?" ]

[]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans." ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nMust be nice to know exactly what you want all the time though." ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nMust be nice to know exactly what you want all the time though.", ">\n\nAnd never be expected to be anything other than what's on the surface" ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nMust be nice to know exactly what you want all the time though.", ">\n\nAnd never be expected to be anything other than what's on the surface", ">\n\nThe surface runs all the way to the middle where the greasy coding hands of your over lord hastily tippy tapped your passion for nothing." ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nMust be nice to know exactly what you want all the time though.", ">\n\nAnd never be expected to be anything other than what's on the surface", ">\n\nThe surface runs all the way to the middle where the greasy coding hands of your over lord hastily tippy tapped your passion for nothing.", ">\n\nWow. If that isn't the truth, then I don't know what is." ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nMust be nice to know exactly what you want all the time though.", ">\n\nAnd never be expected to be anything other than what's on the surface", ">\n\nThe surface runs all the way to the middle where the greasy coding hands of your over lord hastily tippy tapped your passion for nothing.", ">\n\nWow. If that isn't the truth, then I don't know what is.", ">\n\n“You really MPC Meeeeeeee”" ]

[]

[ "My cousin was killed by a drunk driver on his 5th DUI in South Dakota, I don't get why people do this over and over. I am also a bit upset that I read this whole article (filled with ads) and I didn't learn anything about his most recent victim, that person deserves to be remembered, not this waste of life." ]

[ "My cousin was killed by a drunk driver on his 5th DUI in South Dakota, I don't get why people do this over and over. I am also a bit upset that I read this whole article (filled with ads) and I didn't learn anything about his most recent victim, that person deserves to be remembered, not this waste of life.", ">\n\nSome states have very weak penalties for this offense. South Dakota does not impose mandatory minimum jail sentences or fines for DUI convictions, regardless of how many the offender has and regardless of whether another person was injured or killed. The only mandatory penalty is a license suspension; fines and jail time is up to the judge, subject to certain maximums depending on the case." ]

[ "My cousin was killed by a drunk driver on his 5th DUI in South Dakota, I don't get why people do this over and over. I am also a bit upset that I read this whole article (filled with ads) and I didn't learn anything about his most recent victim, that person deserves to be remembered, not this waste of life.", ">\n\nSome states have very weak penalties for this offense. South Dakota does not impose mandatory minimum jail sentences or fines for DUI convictions, regardless of how many the offender has and regardless of whether another person was injured or killed. The only mandatory penalty is a license suspension; fines and jail time is up to the judge, subject to certain maximums depending on the case.", ">\n\nThe more you read, the worse it gets.\nIts almost comical how many chances people get to ruin or end other people's lives.\n\na parole board member noted Bates did not attend any substance misuse treatment while in custody\n\nThey let him out as soon as possible even though he made 0 effort to improve himself." ]

[ "My cousin was killed by a drunk driver on his 5th DUI in South Dakota, I don't get why people do this over and over. I am also a bit upset that I read this whole article (filled with ads) and I didn't learn anything about his most recent victim, that person deserves to be remembered, not this waste of life.", ">\n\nSome states have very weak penalties for this offense. South Dakota does not impose mandatory minimum jail sentences or fines for DUI convictions, regardless of how many the offender has and regardless of whether another person was injured or killed. The only mandatory penalty is a license suspension; fines and jail time is up to the judge, subject to certain maximums depending on the case.", ">\n\nThe more you read, the worse it gets.\nIts almost comical how many chances people get to ruin or end other people's lives.\n\na parole board member noted Bates did not attend any substance misuse treatment while in custody\n\nThey let him out as soon as possible even though he made 0 effort to improve himself.", ">\n\nGo ahead and charge him with murder! Worthless piece of trash" ]

[ "My cousin was killed by a drunk driver on his 5th DUI in South Dakota, I don't get why people do this over and over. I am also a bit upset that I read this whole article (filled with ads) and I didn't learn anything about his most recent victim, that person deserves to be remembered, not this waste of life.", ">\n\nSome states have very weak penalties for this offense. South Dakota does not impose mandatory minimum jail sentences or fines for DUI convictions, regardless of how many the offender has and regardless of whether another person was injured or killed. The only mandatory penalty is a license suspension; fines and jail time is up to the judge, subject to certain maximums depending on the case.", ">\n\nThe more you read, the worse it gets.\nIts almost comical how many chances people get to ruin or end other people's lives.\n\na parole board member noted Bates did not attend any substance misuse treatment while in custody\n\nThey let him out as soon as possible even though he made 0 effort to improve himself.", ">\n\nGo ahead and charge him with murder! Worthless piece of trash", ">\n\nThere was a ruling by the state's Supreme Court prohibiting murder prosecutions in fatal DUI cases. However, there is a statute that makes DUI fatalities carry the same minimum and maximum sentence as second-degree murder if it is the offender's fourth or subsequent lifetime DUI conviction." ]

[ "My cousin was killed by a drunk driver on his 5th DUI in South Dakota, I don't get why people do this over and over. I am also a bit upset that I read this whole article (filled with ads) and I didn't learn anything about his most recent victim, that person deserves to be remembered, not this waste of life.", ">\n\nSome states have very weak penalties for this offense. South Dakota does not impose mandatory minimum jail sentences or fines for DUI convictions, regardless of how many the offender has and regardless of whether another person was injured or killed. The only mandatory penalty is a license suspension; fines and jail time is up to the judge, subject to certain maximums depending on the case.", ">\n\nThe more you read, the worse it gets.\nIts almost comical how many chances people get to ruin or end other people's lives.\n\na parole board member noted Bates did not attend any substance misuse treatment while in custody\n\nThey let him out as soon as possible even though he made 0 effort to improve himself.", ">\n\nGo ahead and charge him with murder! Worthless piece of trash", ">\n\nThere was a ruling by the state's Supreme Court prohibiting murder prosecutions in fatal DUI cases. However, there is a statute that makes DUI fatalities carry the same minimum and maximum sentence as second-degree murder if it is the offender's fourth or subsequent lifetime DUI conviction.", ">\n\nHow was the DUI following his release not enough of a reason to keep him locked up pending trial?\nThings that happen under the influence have to be treated as pre-meditated." ]

[ "My cousin was killed by a drunk driver on his 5th DUI in South Dakota, I don't get why people do this over and over. I am also a bit upset that I read this whole article (filled with ads) and I didn't learn anything about his most recent victim, that person deserves to be remembered, not this waste of life.", ">\n\nSome states have very weak penalties for this offense. South Dakota does not impose mandatory minimum jail sentences or fines for DUI convictions, regardless of how many the offender has and regardless of whether another person was injured or killed. The only mandatory penalty is a license suspension; fines and jail time is up to the judge, subject to certain maximums depending on the case.", ">\n\nThe more you read, the worse it gets.\nIts almost comical how many chances people get to ruin or end other people's lives.\n\na parole board member noted Bates did not attend any substance misuse treatment while in custody\n\nThey let him out as soon as possible even though he made 0 effort to improve himself.", ">\n\nGo ahead and charge him with murder! Worthless piece of trash", ">\n\nThere was a ruling by the state's Supreme Court prohibiting murder prosecutions in fatal DUI cases. However, there is a statute that makes DUI fatalities carry the same minimum and maximum sentence as second-degree murder if it is the offender's fourth or subsequent lifetime DUI conviction.", ">\n\nHow was the DUI following his release not enough of a reason to keep him locked up pending trial?\nThings that happen under the influence have to be treated as pre-meditated.", ">\n\nThis happens all the time, that because our system takes forever, and any good defense attorney knows delay is to their clients' benefit. People often have 3 pending DUI's if you talk with defense attorneys. At least, in some states, it works that way. Also, with all sorts of other criminals as well." ]

[]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans." ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nBoth are prime examples of not improving yourself at all and prioritising narcissistic behaviour until you self-destruct under the weight of your lies and lack of actual worth or substance." ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nBoth are prime examples of not improving yourself at all and prioritising narcissistic behaviour until you self-destruct under the weight of your lies and lack of actual worth or substance.", ">\n\nThe lack of information surrounding his very recent arrest could still very well be an accusation. That goes without saying that nothing is certain, but just making a point that someone could have very well done something along the lines of swatting the dude." ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nBoth are prime examples of not improving yourself at all and prioritising narcissistic behaviour until you self-destruct under the weight of your lies and lack of actual worth or substance.", ">\n\nThe lack of information surrounding his very recent arrest could still very well be an accusation. That goes without saying that nothing is certain, but just making a point that someone could have very well done something along the lines of swatting the dude.", ">\n\nHow did he build something up and not prove it to be true? He's like the only person who talkes about becoming a better man and everyone calls him \"misogynistic\" this world has turned against men." ]

[ "This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.\nRemember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not \"thoughts had in the shower!\"\n(For an explanation of what a \"showerthought\" is, please read this page.)\nRule-breaking posts may result in bans.", ">\n\nBoth are prime examples of not improving yourself at all and prioritising narcissistic behaviour until you self-destruct under the weight of your lies and lack of actual worth or substance.", ">\n\nThe lack of information surrounding his very recent arrest could still very well be an accusation. That goes without saying that nothing is certain, but just making a point that someone could have very well done something along the lines of swatting the dude.", ">\n\nHow did he build something up and not prove it to be true? He's like the only person who talkes about becoming a better man and everyone calls him \"misogynistic\" this world has turned against men.", ">\n\nSelf improvement? He was promoting a mafia boss kind of life style, he got arrested for something he openly said he was doing: trafficking girls for a webcam website." ]

[]

[ "I don't think this should be unpopular, but I don't think it's completely necessary to cram ALL of them into the first date. Ask them about a few of the non-negotiables between casual conversation, covering them all in the span of a couple dates. Unless you want to spend the whole date vetting them and not having any time to enjoy it that is." ]

[ "I don't think this should be unpopular, but I don't think it's completely necessary to cram ALL of them into the first date. Ask them about a few of the non-negotiables between casual conversation, covering them all in the span of a couple dates. Unless you want to spend the whole date vetting them and not having any time to enjoy it that is.", ">\n\nThe only aim on a first date is to ascertain (i) if there is chemistry, and (ii) if so, if that chemistry is or could be romantic. Everything else can come later." ]

[ "I don't think this should be unpopular, but I don't think it's completely necessary to cram ALL of them into the first date. Ask them about a few of the non-negotiables between casual conversation, covering them all in the span of a couple dates. Unless you want to spend the whole date vetting them and not having any time to enjoy it that is.", ">\n\nThe only aim on a first date is to ascertain (i) if there is chemistry, and (ii) if so, if that chemistry is or could be romantic. Everything else can come later.", ">\n\nAnd must come later. Shitty people will tell you what you want to hear. Otherwise simply asking 'are you a narcissistic user of people' would save a lot of headaches. Unless you require documentation as well" ]

[ "I don't think this should be unpopular, but I don't think it's completely necessary to cram ALL of them into the first date. Ask them about a few of the non-negotiables between casual conversation, covering them all in the span of a couple dates. Unless you want to spend the whole date vetting them and not having any time to enjoy it that is.", ">\n\nThe only aim on a first date is to ascertain (i) if there is chemistry, and (ii) if so, if that chemistry is or could be romantic. Everything else can come later.", ">\n\nAnd must come later. Shitty people will tell you what you want to hear. Otherwise simply asking 'are you a narcissistic user of people' would save a lot of headaches. Unless you require documentation as well", ">\n\nNo farting or I'm dumping you Barbara" ]

[ "I don't think this should be unpopular, but I don't think it's completely necessary to cram ALL of them into the first date. Ask them about a few of the non-negotiables between casual conversation, covering them all in the span of a couple dates. Unless you want to spend the whole date vetting them and not having any time to enjoy it that is.", ">\n\nThe only aim on a first date is to ascertain (i) if there is chemistry, and (ii) if so, if that chemistry is or could be romantic. Everything else can come later.", ">\n\nAnd must come later. Shitty people will tell you what you want to hear. Otherwise simply asking 'are you a narcissistic user of people' would save a lot of headaches. Unless you require documentation as well", ">\n\nNo farting or I'm dumping you Barbara", ">\n\nWe're coming to get you, Barbara!" ]

[ "I don't think this should be unpopular, but I don't think it's completely necessary to cram ALL of them into the first date. Ask them about a few of the non-negotiables between casual conversation, covering them all in the span of a couple dates. Unless you want to spend the whole date vetting them and not having any time to enjoy it that is.", ">\n\nThe only aim on a first date is to ascertain (i) if there is chemistry, and (ii) if so, if that chemistry is or could be romantic. Everything else can come later.", ">\n\nAnd must come later. Shitty people will tell you what you want to hear. Otherwise simply asking 'are you a narcissistic user of people' would save a lot of headaches. Unless you require documentation as well", ">\n\nNo farting or I'm dumping you Barbara", ">\n\nWe're coming to get you, Barbara!", ">\n\nYou've got red on you" ]