Datasets:

---

innovation-hacking2

/

shitposting_dataset1

like 0

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"" ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away." ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away.", ">\n\nI highly doubt that will be admissable. SCQOPTUS will declare it irrelevant." ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away.", ">\n\nI highly doubt that will be admissable. SCQOPTUS will declare it irrelevant.", ">\n\nSupreme Court Republicans Of The US?" ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away.", ">\n\nI highly doubt that will be admissable. SCQOPTUS will declare it irrelevant.", ">\n\nSupreme Court Republicans Of The US?", ">\n\nThis is the same loan servicing company in charge of the public service loan forgiveness program.. just grand…" ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away.", ">\n\nI highly doubt that will be admissable. SCQOPTUS will declare it irrelevant.", ">\n\nSupreme Court Republicans Of The US?", ">\n\nThis is the same loan servicing company in charge of the public service loan forgiveness program.. just grand…", ">\n\nWhat difference does it make what SCOTUS does if we. all. just. stop. paying?" ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away.", ">\n\nI highly doubt that will be admissable. SCQOPTUS will declare it irrelevant.", ">\n\nSupreme Court Republicans Of The US?", ">\n\nThis is the same loan servicing company in charge of the public service loan forgiveness program.. just grand…", ">\n\nWhat difference does it make what SCOTUS does if we. all. just. stop. paying?", ">\n\nThey’ll just garnish your wages or file a lien. Unless you’re a cash only fellow." ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away.", ">\n\nI highly doubt that will be admissable. SCQOPTUS will declare it irrelevant.", ">\n\nSupreme Court Republicans Of The US?", ">\n\nThis is the same loan servicing company in charge of the public service loan forgiveness program.. just grand…", ">\n\nWhat difference does it make what SCOTUS does if we. all. just. stop. paying?", ">\n\nThey’ll just garnish your wages or file a lien. Unless you’re a cash only fellow.", ">\n\nWhich is why I suggested collective action. Or inaction, in this case." ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away.", ">\n\nI highly doubt that will be admissable. SCQOPTUS will declare it irrelevant.", ">\n\nSupreme Court Republicans Of The US?", ">\n\nThis is the same loan servicing company in charge of the public service loan forgiveness program.. just grand…", ">\n\nWhat difference does it make what SCOTUS does if we. all. just. stop. paying?", ">\n\nThey’ll just garnish your wages or file a lien. Unless you’re a cash only fellow.", ">\n\nWhich is why I suggested collective action. Or inaction, in this case.", ">\n\nSo like, a hunger strike?" ]

[ "Okay, but this also doesn't even make sense. The way this is written, it reads as if MOHELA, the loan provider, was created by the state of Missouri to collect funding through loans to improve the state's higher education infrastructure through the Lewis and Clark Fund. \nA government created a private company to fund a fund, to fund the government, but then stopped paying into itself because...they forgot or stopped caring...and then when debt relief was announced, got upset because the forgiveness of loans would slow the revenue of...zero dollars into the fund..because the private company stopped funding the fund, but doesn't care because they weren't using it anyway.\nIs that what's being said? If so, that's fucking stupid.", ">\n\nIt makes a lot of sense, when you add criminally intent.", ">\n\nIt is all okay when the wealthy do it...they just waiting on the next handout and they will get it at the cost to everyone in the nation excluding themselves. Yet trying to help the whole for the Greater good of our nation? Well according to them that is just us being selfish and evil....", ">\n\nOne of the problems Rome had was that the wealthy would stop paying taxes, and just wait for a general tax amnesty that would erase the debt.", ">\n\n\n“… Student debt kind of gets recycled and flipped and passed around from entity to entity.”\n\nThis reminds me of the subprime mortgage crisis that burst the real estate bubble and helped cause the Great Recession.", ">\n\nI read this take a lot. That what will happen with student loans may not be on the same scale as 2008, but is happening w/ mechanics similar to 2008. I wonder. A lot of people hear “10%” and think this is a small part of the population but a good chunk those people have families that rely on them, and even younger siblings that see the true cost of college and decide to not go. It is significant", ">\n\nWait, my loans just transferred to MOHELA last year. Does this have an impact on me?", ">\n\nIt makes the legal argument stronger for throwing out the case that is currently preventing the Biden-Harris loan forgiveness. Just because the case doesn’t have standing doesn’t necessarily mean SCOTUS will throw it out. They have ignored lack of standing on other cases before but the defense didn’t have as strong of an argument against standing until they found this information.\nI don’t think it affects your repayment of loans to MOHELA but it just makes it more likely the defense against the lawsuit will be successful.", ">\n\nRemember, “rules for thee, not for me.”", ">\n\nSo to make sure I understand. Part of the lawsuit is to protect an organization that's legally considered separate from the state and did not ask to be included in the lawsuit and had no issues with the forgiveness. The claim being it would hurt that organizations ability to pay on a loan that hasn't been paid in a long time. In fact its been so long that kids born in that year the payments stopped are currently getting letters from colleges asking them to go there and those kids are now almost adults. This same debt that has been extended already and could be extended again. To reiterate the current payments being made are $0 to the state which has been going on for years, and even if Biden completely removed debt completely for students then mohela could continue to pay the same amount.", ">\n\nMy loans were transferred to MOHELA months ago and it's been absolutely awful. Zero proactive communication from them. Zero human responses to my messages through their online platform. No proactive confirmation that prior records were received and processed. I'm halfway through PSLF and just waiting for the need to lawyer up/join a class action at some point.", ">\n\nMine were transferred there last year. I sent in my PSLF paperwork in Oct 2021 when the waiver time was announced. I just got my letter last week saying they had been forgiven. The letters they were sending kept saying I had made 137 of the 120 payments but didn’t say they were forgiven. Months went by before the final letter. \nThey never responded to my messages online.", ">\n\nCongratulations! Glad it worked out for you. I'll hold out some hope.", ">\n\nWhen the wealthy do it: \"Well, that's just good business.\"", ">\n\nI can’t wait to get a check for $3.76 after paying them hundreds of dollars towards my loan, and still being forced to pay what they stole.\nThey switched me to MOHELA and it’s a terrible fucking system.\nI’m so close to paying off my fucking school loan and now they want to go ahead and just fuck it all up when I’m a few months away.", ">\n\nI highly doubt that will be admissable. SCQOPTUS will declare it irrelevant.", ">\n\nSupreme Court Republicans Of The US?", ">\n\nThis is the same loan servicing company in charge of the public service loan forgiveness program.. just grand…", ">\n\nWhat difference does it make what SCOTUS does if we. all. just. stop. paying?", ">\n\nThey’ll just garnish your wages or file a lien. Unless you’re a cash only fellow.", ">\n\nWhich is why I suggested collective action. Or inaction, in this case.", ">\n\nSo like, a hunger strike?", ">\n\nIf this happens WITH an IRS…. What happens without?" ]

[]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it)." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture)." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. ." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\"." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy", ">\n\nFrom a black persons' context, there is a very vivid perspective about this topic in the tv series AtlantaFX S4E10 where Earn, Alfred and Van go to a black owned Japanese restaurant." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy", ">\n\nFrom a black persons' context, there is a very vivid perspective about this topic in the tv series AtlantaFX S4E10 where Earn, Alfred and Van go to a black owned Japanese restaurant.", ">\n\nIt’s wise to be careful about generalities when abstracting groups of groups of groups like this. When you pull out to a thousand feet lens, humans are generally similar across these somewhat arbitrary divisions. But the close up differences are the whole point and are worth taking into consideration. Especially for when the conversation is so specific that named individuals are involved. \nI do not have anything to say about this one particularly, but arbitrarily ignoring differences does not make arbitrary differences go away. Two wrongs and a right and all that." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy", ">\n\nFrom a black persons' context, there is a very vivid perspective about this topic in the tv series AtlantaFX S4E10 where Earn, Alfred and Van go to a black owned Japanese restaurant.", ">\n\nIt’s wise to be careful about generalities when abstracting groups of groups of groups like this. When you pull out to a thousand feet lens, humans are generally similar across these somewhat arbitrary divisions. But the close up differences are the whole point and are worth taking into consideration. Especially for when the conversation is so specific that named individuals are involved. \nI do not have anything to say about this one particularly, but arbitrarily ignoring differences does not make arbitrary differences go away. Two wrongs and a right and all that.", ">\n\nIf a baby is born and bred in America, no matter where their for fathers are from they are Americans. Whether they are Asian, African etc. my father was born in America of parents who immigrated from Denmark. He was American.\nHe could have called himself Danish American but American he remained, having served his country for 20 years in the Air force. Is there a law that states he could not have profited from his Danish decent. I don’t think so." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy", ">\n\nFrom a black persons' context, there is a very vivid perspective about this topic in the tv series AtlantaFX S4E10 where Earn, Alfred and Van go to a black owned Japanese restaurant.", ">\n\nIt’s wise to be careful about generalities when abstracting groups of groups of groups like this. When you pull out to a thousand feet lens, humans are generally similar across these somewhat arbitrary divisions. But the close up differences are the whole point and are worth taking into consideration. Especially for when the conversation is so specific that named individuals are involved. \nI do not have anything to say about this one particularly, but arbitrarily ignoring differences does not make arbitrary differences go away. Two wrongs and a right and all that.", ">\n\nIf a baby is born and bred in America, no matter where their for fathers are from they are Americans. Whether they are Asian, African etc. my father was born in America of parents who immigrated from Denmark. He was American.\nHe could have called himself Danish American but American he remained, having served his country for 20 years in the Air force. Is there a law that states he could not have profited from his Danish decent. I don’t think so.", ">\n\nMarcus Samuelson claims his Ethiopian and Swedish heritage. He was born in Ethiopia and was adopted by Swedes and grew up there. He is now an American. How would he not claim his ethnicity or not claim where he grew up." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy", ">\n\nFrom a black persons' context, there is a very vivid perspective about this topic in the tv series AtlantaFX S4E10 where Earn, Alfred and Van go to a black owned Japanese restaurant.", ">\n\nIt’s wise to be careful about generalities when abstracting groups of groups of groups like this. When you pull out to a thousand feet lens, humans are generally similar across these somewhat arbitrary divisions. But the close up differences are the whole point and are worth taking into consideration. Especially for when the conversation is so specific that named individuals are involved. \nI do not have anything to say about this one particularly, but arbitrarily ignoring differences does not make arbitrary differences go away. Two wrongs and a right and all that.", ">\n\nIf a baby is born and bred in America, no matter where their for fathers are from they are Americans. Whether they are Asian, African etc. my father was born in America of parents who immigrated from Denmark. He was American.\nHe could have called himself Danish American but American he remained, having served his country for 20 years in the Air force. Is there a law that states he could not have profited from his Danish decent. I don’t think so.", ">\n\nMarcus Samuelson claims his Ethiopian and Swedish heritage. He was born in Ethiopia and was adopted by Swedes and grew up there. He is now an American. How would he not claim his ethnicity or not claim where he grew up.", ">\n\nIn my opinion, if someone is adopted at a young age into a culture different from their parents, they can claim to be from that culture. Example: If a black baby from Kenya is adopted and raised into an Arabic household in Arabia, where he is raised with Arabic culture and is taught their customs and language, then they can claim to be of Arabic culture. What, they're supposed to identify with a Kenyan culture they have no personal ties to? They cannot, however, claim to be ethnically Arab, as that is different." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy", ">\n\nFrom a black persons' context, there is a very vivid perspective about this topic in the tv series AtlantaFX S4E10 where Earn, Alfred and Van go to a black owned Japanese restaurant.", ">\n\nIt’s wise to be careful about generalities when abstracting groups of groups of groups like this. When you pull out to a thousand feet lens, humans are generally similar across these somewhat arbitrary divisions. But the close up differences are the whole point and are worth taking into consideration. Especially for when the conversation is so specific that named individuals are involved. \nI do not have anything to say about this one particularly, but arbitrarily ignoring differences does not make arbitrary differences go away. Two wrongs and a right and all that.", ">\n\nIf a baby is born and bred in America, no matter where their for fathers are from they are Americans. Whether they are Asian, African etc. my father was born in America of parents who immigrated from Denmark. He was American.\nHe could have called himself Danish American but American he remained, having served his country for 20 years in the Air force. Is there a law that states he could not have profited from his Danish decent. I don’t think so.", ">\n\nMarcus Samuelson claims his Ethiopian and Swedish heritage. He was born in Ethiopia and was adopted by Swedes and grew up there. He is now an American. How would he not claim his ethnicity or not claim where he grew up.", ">\n\nIn my opinion, if someone is adopted at a young age into a culture different from their parents, they can claim to be from that culture. Example: If a black baby from Kenya is adopted and raised into an Arabic household in Arabia, where he is raised with Arabic culture and is taught their customs and language, then they can claim to be of Arabic culture. What, they're supposed to identify with a Kenyan culture they have no personal ties to? They cannot, however, claim to be ethnically Arab, as that is different.", ">\n\nDepends on which culture. An American going to Africa, learning a trade/custom/whatever and then profiting is unethical given the history of the Western world's exploitation of the entire continent and how that's left most states in Africa. \nI think people understand the extreme example, but they take the polarized stance to every culture. Japan is an interesting one since its always been isolationist, and has never been conquered by a Western power. But there has been a history of anti-Asian, and specifically anti-Japanese sentiment.\nWith respect to appropriation in Japan, as an American it's likely hard to relate since we don't have a long history of customs and culture. But there is the fetishizing of Japanese culture. The closest thing we probably have is religion. The reverse example would be a non-Christian country dressing up as knock off Jesus. I'm sure people would be mad at that in some way." ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy", ">\n\nFrom a black persons' context, there is a very vivid perspective about this topic in the tv series AtlantaFX S4E10 where Earn, Alfred and Van go to a black owned Japanese restaurant.", ">\n\nIt’s wise to be careful about generalities when abstracting groups of groups of groups like this. When you pull out to a thousand feet lens, humans are generally similar across these somewhat arbitrary divisions. But the close up differences are the whole point and are worth taking into consideration. Especially for when the conversation is so specific that named individuals are involved. \nI do not have anything to say about this one particularly, but arbitrarily ignoring differences does not make arbitrary differences go away. Two wrongs and a right and all that.", ">\n\nIf a baby is born and bred in America, no matter where their for fathers are from they are Americans. Whether they are Asian, African etc. my father was born in America of parents who immigrated from Denmark. He was American.\nHe could have called himself Danish American but American he remained, having served his country for 20 years in the Air force. Is there a law that states he could not have profited from his Danish decent. I don’t think so.", ">\n\nMarcus Samuelson claims his Ethiopian and Swedish heritage. He was born in Ethiopia and was adopted by Swedes and grew up there. He is now an American. How would he not claim his ethnicity or not claim where he grew up.", ">\n\nIn my opinion, if someone is adopted at a young age into a culture different from their parents, they can claim to be from that culture. Example: If a black baby from Kenya is adopted and raised into an Arabic household in Arabia, where he is raised with Arabic culture and is taught their customs and language, then they can claim to be of Arabic culture. What, they're supposed to identify with a Kenyan culture they have no personal ties to? They cannot, however, claim to be ethnically Arab, as that is different.", ">\n\nDepends on which culture. An American going to Africa, learning a trade/custom/whatever and then profiting is unethical given the history of the Western world's exploitation of the entire continent and how that's left most states in Africa. \nI think people understand the extreme example, but they take the polarized stance to every culture. Japan is an interesting one since its always been isolationist, and has never been conquered by a Western power. But there has been a history of anti-Asian, and specifically anti-Japanese sentiment.\nWith respect to appropriation in Japan, as an American it's likely hard to relate since we don't have a long history of customs and culture. But there is the fetishizing of Japanese culture. The closest thing we probably have is religion. The reverse example would be a non-Christian country dressing up as knock off Jesus. I'm sure people would be mad at that in some way.", ">\n\n\nDepends on which culture. An American going to Africa, learning a trade/custom/whatever and then profiting is unethical given the history of the Western world's exploitation of the entire continent and how that's left most states in Africa.\n\nWhy exactly is this unethical? Like, I understand that the history of the Western world's exploitation of the African continent is unethical... but why does that translate into it being wrong for, say, a white American chef to incorporate Ethiopian-inspired dishes into their cuisine, or for a white musician to play a traditional Nigerian instrument on an album? What harm is being done by either of these things?" ]

[ "Can you give some links that specify the \"recent Gwen Stefani controversy\" and clarify what position this \"progressive gaming website\" is taking? That context isn't particularly clear to me.\n\n... If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame. ...\n\nPasta was invented in China. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to sell pasta unless they're got some kind of Chinese cultural background? Should white Californians be prohibited from harvesting sea urchins and selling them to the Japanese because eating sea urchin is part of Japanese culture, but not so much part of white California culture?\nThere's also the \"people who deal with African culture stuff should be black\" stuff. We've had a bunch of generations of black people in the US, and Africa is a huge place with diverse cultures. Does it make sense to think that someone whose great great great grandfather was taken from Senegal has any meaningful connection to cultural artifacts from Tanzania thanks to that ancestry?", ">\n\nSure\nGwen Stefani controversy, again this is a starting point for the conversation, not the hypothetical.\nGwen Stefani Claims \"I`m Japanese\"\nWill quote the entire position posted on the gaming website:\n\nOne thing that's important to remember, is although there may be some valid instances where person of X \"race\" is raised in a specific country, by that country's people, with that country's culture, etc. and they identify with that + are accepted by those people as such, that still doesn't mean this person can then take things from that culture and use them for fame and profit, much less claim that you ARE that culture. EDIT: and yes I understand that's not even what truly took place with Gwen, I'm just basing this on it hypothetically being the case. She's not even in that category.", ">\n\nOk, so people are saying this stuff about \"even if the person was raised in Japan\" in the context of a discussion about Gwen Stefani's claims.\nSo, the first observation to make is that people aren't very good about thinking what they're saying through, and will often say silly things in the moment. \"Even if the person was raised in Japan\" position seems the the kind of thing that people might say when they're too busy being upset to think clearly.\nThere are certainly examples - like with war bonnets - where the cultural appropriation complaints clearly has to do with an existing culture, but it also seems like much of the \"cultural appropriation\" stuff has a lot more to do with how minorities feel as a minority population in the US than it has to do with a connection to an origin culture. Consider, for example, how strongly people react to the idea of Wakanda even when it's explicitly a fairy tale, or how there was a furor about \"My culture is not your prom dress!\" on one side of the Pacific Ocean but not on the other. If \"cultural appropriation\" is really about people's unhappiness with their status in the US, then it's not so silly to discount origins.", ">\n\nThank you! \nWhile did not change my mind on the viewpoint.\nYour answer was the most helpful in understanding why someone would have this opinion and where the feelings come from, Appreciated!", ">\n\nI would also argue that cultural appropriation comes with signal and noise.\nIf you have something in your culture that has meaning it's entirely possible for a larger outside group to swamp that meaning and change it. For example, you're bleeding. You see someone with a lab coat and stethoscope and you're like \"sweet, a doctor\" and then they look at you like you're crazy because that's, like, a fashion statement. It'd be quite jarring and you'd still be bleeding.\nOften times things like the war bonnet are the equivalent of military medals. There are laws against wearing medals that you didn't earn, why shouldn't there be rules against wearing the war bonnet that is earned the same way? That's also where a lot of the 'my culture isn't your prom dress'. It's not an issue where your culture is dominant and everyone would expect the person wearing equipment associated with doctors to actually be a doctor, but if you're in a minority position where people don't understand the connection then making people aware that they're doing something that will lead to problems is useful. \nClothing is communication. That's the whole point of fashion, saying something about who and what you are. There is signal, wearing clothes that communicate good information. There is noise, wearing something that is either actively lying or is misleading or is using a different and unusual meaning that will confuse people. I don't see how making a mockery of veterans using words or making a mockery of them by 'ironically' wearing their medals is any different.", ">\n\nThere is a huge difference between wearing a certain style of clothing that you like and wearing a recognised uniform of a soldier… that’s not a good faith comparison. You are comparing fashion to fraud.\nThe vast majority of people actually from the country of origin of a style love foreigners wearing it, they celebrate it. It’s almost always Whiney middle class westerners who complain on behalf of others, I speculate it’s from wanting to gain clout or based off some white saviour complex but I don’t actually know their motive for it. \nIf you’re very obviously not a part of that culture then there’s no issue with you wearing a war bonnet. If some American wore a kilt in my families colours I wouldn’t care at all because they’re not trying to lie, they just like kilts and are ignorant of the meaning of the colours. It’s hardly a big deal.", ">\n\nI'm not sure about the soldier thing. It's pretty common to dress as a soldier for fancy dress/halloween, and I don't think there's any harm in that, unless it's done in a way designed to be disrespectful. If someone were wearing a military uniform in order to pass themselves off as an actual soldier and benefit from it, I'd have problems with that too. But just wearing the uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think.\nThat's probably how I feel about cultural appropriation in general. If you're taking things from another culture to make fun of it, or claim it as your own, then no, not good. But if you wear the clothes, or eat the food, or listen to music etc from another culture because you genuinely appreciate it, I don't see the problem. It's being respectful, it's sharing culture, maybe even showing people who haven't had chance to experience that culture some of the good things about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.\nI'm very uncomfortable with the idea that any sharing of culture between races is a bad thing, which seems to be how some people define cultural appropriation, as it seems to be reinforcing the idea that cultures shouldn't mix, and playing in to the hands of racists.", ">\n\nA war bonnet is less wearing a uniform, and more like wearing medals on that uniform. You have to earn the right to wear a war bonnet.\nI also think the issue of the authenticity of what you consume is important. If you are listening to music from an artist of a culture, or eating food or wearing clothes sourced from members of that culture (and who benefit from that consumption) that's very different from buying something stripped of context and mass-produced by someone who will not be investing any of their profit back into the group to whom it originally belonged.\nI went to a Desi wedding recently. The groom, a friend of mine, said everyone was invited to wear Indian clothing to some of the events, so I picked a kurta. I bought it from an Indian company and picked an appropriate style and color for my role in the wedding and what kind of event it was. In short, I made every attempt to engage with the culture on its own terms and avoid doing anything that would be a dick move. And a lot of this was possible because there are spheres in which Desi culture is dominant, so when I existed within them I was necessarily operating within acceptable boundaries. If I had done something rude or unacceptable, I would have been moved back into acceptability (very nicely, everyone was great, but the idea stands). This is not the context in which American Indian culture specifically is usually consumed. Much more common is a single item or set of them, used as accessories while operating within another culture that has historically shown significant scorn for the peoples from whom it is taking these objects.\nLike I said on another comment, it's an issue of not being an asshole. Are you treating the object (and what it symbolizes) with the respect it deserves? My kurta was just a piece of clothing, so the respect was in what I did with it. However, authentic war bonnets are handmade for the people who earned them. If you buy one just to wear, you've already been disrespectful to what it means to the people to whom it has actual significance. If someone at the wedding had told me I was doing something out of line, I would have stopped doing it. If I hadn't, I would have been an asshole. If native people are saying \"please don't make costumes out of war bonnets\" I feel like you're an asshole if you keep doing it.", ">\n\nIn the case of Gwen Stefani, she's a person who for all intents and purposes is white, and she's using Japanese culture as an aesthetic - that's not bad. She was also using stereotypes, misusing cultural terms and symbols, and had a group of Japanese girls follow her around almost as props -that's the bad part.\nIts not wrong to claim a culture you were raised in even if you aren't the race of the people around you. Many adoptees do. But Gwen isn't Japanese. She wasnt raised there either. She isn't joining in on a culture, like some people do when they are \"cultural appreciators\", she's simply taking small pieces, specifically pieces of the Harajuku fashion scene, and turning it into a brand, especially when Japanese Americans are often used as a \"model minority\". It's not an equal exchange between Gwen and Asian Americans because obviously she can just do whatever she wants whereas they can't ask her to stop.", ">\n\nI really don’t know about this case but as you framed it I still don’t see what is wrong with her actions. It sounds ‘marketing like’. There is no reason for there to be equal exchange between a person and a people, as long as someone isn’t harming others in some way playing the advantage is fine.", ">\n\nUsing stereotypes as a brand is harmful.", ">\n\nIs she using negative stereotypes? A stereotype is fine as long as it isn’t negative in nature. Culture is fundamentally a collection of stereotypes in a sense.", ">\n\nI don’t see how that article proves my stance is untrue. Also a side note don’t generally trust articles framed from a sensationalistic perspective, especially if it is also framed like a story. If this article does indeed prove my stance untrue or you yourself can, can you make it clear in a conceptual / abstract fashion while avoiding sensationalism? That would be helpful.", ">\n\nThe problem I see with your statement is because you start by saying X RACE but switch to saying culture. Those are not the same thing. \nCase in point, I lived in Barbados for a time. 95% of the population is Black, but about 3% is White and approx. 2% is South or East Asian. \nThe White Bajans were born, raised and live in Barbados. They speak with the local accent and are raised in the same cultural context of their Black peers (listen to the same music, celebrate the same festivities, enjoy the same food, etc.), so it would be fair to call themselves Islanders/Bajans, and to benefit from their culture. \nWhite Bajans however do not have experience being Black. They absolutely should not use their cultural background as justification to rip off Black experiences for profit or otherwise. \nA perhaps more well-known example would be celebrity Michael B Jordan ripping off the name \"J'Ouvert\" for his rum company. Despite being Black, Jordan is not from the Caribbean and aligning your product with a traditional Caribbean festival to drive consumers to derive profit is not ethical.", ">\n\nYeah I think that's the important distinction. They can absolutely use the culture they were brought up in, but saying because you were brought up in that culture you also have the racial experience doesn't follow.", ">\n\nBut all the “racial experience” stuff is Americans projecting their racist, invented concepts of race onto people in other countries. America isn’t the only country in the world, and the experience of a white American isn’t analogous to every person in the world an American would describe as white.", ">\n\nUh what? Yeah of course it isn't analogous, that's the entire point. What are you talking about?", ">\n\nThat would be a great point if it didn't totally misunderstand what cultural appropriation is. The problem isn't \"ownership\" or who did it first, it's that one culture persecuted another for this, but is now enjoying it consequence-free while the original injustice remains unaddressed.", ">\n\nHilarious this is the top comment when it doesn't even get the central concept right.", ">\n\nEasily digestible, non-threatening false info is often more popular than challenging truth.", ">\n\nThanks for the positive reply! \nI think this may be too extreme of an example that I won`t get anyone actually trying to change my mind, may help to expand the viewpoint to transracialism in general.", ">\n\nPart of the issue is your are conflating (not to be rude but) stupid people on the internet talking about something, and an actual esoteric academic subject.\nIf you wanted to learn, say, about quantum physics would you go down to your local bar and ask the patrons? You wouldn't. But the information you're using is so generic and nonspecific that its the equivalent. You're looking for a basic common denominator because you're arguing against an equivalent.\nIf you want to learn about an esoteric subject you read published peer reviewed reports on that subject that explores the nuance, issues, and information associated with the topic.\nThat's really your problem. And maybe you're trying to expressly dissuade tiktokers and twitter users from using it - I don't disagree there. Its the same thing that is happening with Critical Thinking - people uneducated on the topic are loud and opinionated and make shit up to see knowledgeable. But what you aren't doing is learning about the actual academic topic that coined cultural appropriation - what it really is. You're working, instead, in a framework of second hand information passed along by people unassociated with the topic. Given the comment section, they're also ill-informed about the definition, examples, and history. Those people are playing telephone and have non-academic motives.\nIn the case that you listed no academic would consider that cultural appropriation by the academic definition;\n\nthe unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.\n\nThe definition immediately defines the word as having to be unacknowledged and/or inappropriate. Literally being adopted isn't inappropriate.", ">\n\nFrom my experience with (even double blind) peer review, I don't understand why the practice has garnered such an adoring reputation, as it provides no assurance of Truth. \nThat said, I agree that it's worth learning what experts have to say. Just don't take it as gospel.", ">\n\nIt’s not about truth - it’s about people actually well educated on tangential but associated topics being able to contribute and discuss a topic in great detail using their education and experience with the topic. Pretty much everything you won’t find in non-academic realms. \nA benefit would be - and not to be rude, but an opportunity for example - not having to explain that it’s not about “truth” as a side topic to general academia.", ">\n\nYou'll have to be clearer. I don't understand what you're saying.\nI don't see how it's an opportunity to not be burdened with foundational methodological questions. I wish discussions could be more efficient in that way. I don't think it's possible unless you have people who have already accepted certain things. That's difficult is a forum like this.\nAs I understand it, peer review mostly exploded after WW2. While the volume of papers rapidly accelerated, the quality per paper did not, IMO.", ">\n\nTL;DR: There is no reason to believe Stefani is concurrent with the hypothetical you’ve provided in your title.\nIf people are accepted by a group as part of that group, it doesn’t really matter what out-groups have to say about it; moreover, it shouldn’t matter. The way you’ve set this up is a truism: out-groups don’t generally define in-groups if they aren’t part of that in-group; that’s not how in/out-groups work. In this example, if Gwen is accepted as a Japanese person, she’s either “accepted by Japanese people as a Japanese person,” or “she’s Japanese”. The distinction isn’t really worth fighting over by out-groups because they don’t define the terms.\nWith all that said, I think you should consider specific examples versus hypotheticals here, because hypotheticals aren’t important, but cultural examples definitely are. For example, you’ve described this situation as your example, but it’s not an example of your hypothetical: she’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese, and if she were, I don’t think this would be news; moreover, Stefani’s publicist said in a statement about Stefani that the claim was not made in earnest (i.e., “she didn’t mean literally Japanese”). Further still, Stefani is a ‘serial appropriator’, and that’s a known value. There’s no reason to think this situation is different, and her publicist noted that she didn’t claim what people are saying she claimed—specifically, she said the words “I’m Japanese”, but didn’t make the claim that she was, in fact, Japanese (again, despite literally saying it).", ">\n\n\nshe’s not accepted by Japanese people as Japanese\n\nHow could she be? They generally still have a blood-and-soil concept of who can be Japanese.", ">\n\nI’m not saying she is. In fact, that’s exactly what I am saying: this is a super bad example of what OP is trying to say.", ">\n\nThis is a pretty interesting topic.\nI am of Asian background but let's say I paid a Ukrainian grandmother to teach me how to make authentic Ukrainian perogies and I could ultimately master/replicate the recipe.\nA) Is it ethical that I sell these perogies and market it as authentic to people in my motherland, and\nB) Is it ethical if I sell then within Ukraine?\nTo me, under question A) I think it's fair, because you're providing a service that people would otherwise not be able to realistically receive so it promotes globalization. I would also say it's not cultural appropriation, if the recipe is an authentic and you're not making any false or grossly exaggerated representations.\nQuestion B) on the other hand, is a bit harder to answer and would depend on quite a few specifics. However, in general, to me this teeters more towards the unethical side, because you're not providing a novel service, and thus, you're using this recipe with the greater intention of making money.\nI'm not really sure what your position is, but would be interested to see how you interpret the above.", ">\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian who “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\nIf yes: then your answers to both questions has nothing to do with cultural appropriation!", ">\n\n\nLet’s say you’re a native Ukrainian “uses a pierogi recipe with the greater intention of making money”. Do you think that’s unethical too?\nIf no: then what’s wrong with a foreigner/non-Ukrainian doing it?\n\nThe first scenario wouldn't be cultural appropriation because they are of that culture. The second scenario would fit into the category of cultural appropriation (barring some exceptions, such as if they had grown up within that culture).", ">\n\nTrue. But we already established with your first example that cultural appropriation is not always bad.", ">\n\nI don't know if you read the interview with Gwen Stefani, but really the problem is her commodification of Japanese culture for her benefit while she herself was not raised in Japan (from everything I've seen) and was not Japanese. Even then, there's another aspect, regardless of being raised in Japan if you are ethically white you simply can't face the exact same experiences. If that white person raised in Japan migrates to America they will not face the same sort of discrimination an ethnically Japanese person would face. \nI am half native and it shows, I was raised in America in a very white dominant environment, however I am incapable of claiming to truly be white regardless of that fact. Regardless of everything else, when someone sees me I will not be a white person. I may like the same things, use the same idioms, have the same accent, etc, but I will forever be seen and treated as something else. That is the reality of racism that many ethnically white people don't recognize because, like Gwen Stefani, they never had to truly face the repercussions for being a minority in that facet.", ">\n\nFrom your title, you give a lot of prerequisites. They must be:\n\nX race\nraised in Y country\nBy Y country's people\nWith Y countries culture\nIdentify with Y country's identity\nAccepted by Y country's people\n\nAnd then they can do what they want with that culture.\nWhich of these, if not met, are dealbreakers?\nWhat if they meet all of the above but are not \"raised by Y country's people\", for example. Are they still allowed to take elements from that culture?", ">\n\nThanks for the thought-provoking follow-up, I went with the extreme example, because that is what the source was setting as criteria. \nI`m sure I would be even much more liberal with the definition, but have not worked out my own viewpoint on where the line would be that you can call yourself a \"Culture\" \nIf someone`s lived experiences make them feel that they are that culture and they have any of the above (Besides only \"Identify with Y country's identity\" just), I guess I would find it acceptable to use that culture. \n------\n-Obviously there are degrees: if you lived in an embassy compound for a year, never left the compound, calling yourself that Y country can seem to be stretching it.", ">\n\nRace ≠ Nationality\nIf I, an African moved to Sweden and had a child who grew up in and spoke fluent Swedish language, was culturally Swedish, it still wouldn't make them Swede. Not unless their father was Swedish...\nThey'd be Swedish the nationality, but not an Ethnic Swede by race. .", ">\n\nIs Swedish an ethnicity?", ">\n\nThere are always going to be degrees of gradation to this, rather than some strict sharp line of delineation. For some people, to some observers, in some situations there will be labels that apply or don't and it comes down to how far outside of the sort of \"central cluster\" of that population a person is.\nThough I'd also say that looking like a member of a particular culture's vastly dominant race is itself a part of being in that culture, particularly with aspects of how that culture deals with self-image and interacts with outsiders. So there's going to be at least some part of what's generally part of Japanese culture which a white person will always be on the outside of, no matter what they do or what their background is, at least with respect to how things currently work. Whether this becomes relevant to a question (either internally or externally) of identity is going to come down to a lot of details of the specific situation.", ">\n\nIf you're born and raised in Japan, you're Japanese, regardless of your skin color, race, etc...\nAlso, culture is nurture, not nature. If you're raised in Japan, you're going to act culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThanks for example!\nHonestly an even better example may be (Who does not use her otherness):\nKiko Mizuhara\nShe fits the criteria above:\nBorn In Dallas Texas, to a Korean Mother and Texan Father.\nRaised in Japan / Japanese schools. Only spoke Japanese growing up.\nCertainly on a list of largest fashion influencers in Japan now.\nCan she not call herself Japanese?", ">\n\nWentz, Becky, Thane Camus (whose nationality is American but was raised in Japan) etc. are all Japanese as far as I'm concerned, but it's also insincere to say they haven't leveraged their otherness to stand out and get ahead. \nThis is not meant to be judgemental, just a simple statement of fact.", ">\n\nRight or wrong, how does this affect the CMV either way? It doesn't seem to challenge or support their viewpoint, it's tangential.", ">\n\nIt doesn't; it's just supposed to make you feel bad and shut up.", ">\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese. \nSecondly, Japanese culture is not like America were you can immigrate and become fully integrated. There are Koreans living in Japan whose great great grandparents were brought over as laborers before WW 2 and who are still not seen as true Nihonjin. It’s a specific mix of racial, ethnic, and cultural traits that make you Japanese. You can’t just adopt the identity, even if you grew up in Japan. \nTLDR you can’t claim a cultural identity unless that culture says you can be part of it. And with Japanese culture in particular, it’s incredibly hard if not impossible to join the club after birth.\nEdit: my statements are based on my experiences living 3 years in Japan and looking into Japanese citizenship through marriage.", ">\n\n\nWell first, I don’t believe Stefani grew up in Japan. If that was true then yeah she would have a better claim to being culturally Japanese.\n\nShe claimed that her father went on business trips to Japan, and that she was exposed to some Japanese culture while growing up in California.", ">\n\nIs this about the cat song or have she gone of the rails?", ">\n\nShe recently did an interview where she claimed she was Japanese because her dad went there a lot and she likes Japanese culture", ">\n\nI mean that describes tens of thousands of people. Well millions if you include every anime or Kurosawa fan. IMHO you need to at least have a long-term resident's visa and be fluent in Japanese to call yourself culturally Japanese.", ">\n\nThe biggest issue here is working with an incredibly hypothetical situation that may or may not have ever happened, and then asking to have a fully formed black or white view of it. Especially while using vague language to describe the scenario.\nIf a Japanese baby is adopted out to a German couple and spends their entire life in Germany, speaking German, etc, does your view also mean they must forgo any cultural ties to their birthplace and birth parents?", ">\n\nNope, My view is all for first / second / third-culture kids. \nThe German situation, I would be fine with them having cultural ties to birthplace / birth parents. In no way would expect it of them though. \nI`m personally a third culture kid, and while I`m nowhere close to the hypothetical, I have met and been friends with people that fit in the above hypothetical example (Again mostly, Korean / Chinese)", ">\n\nThat seems like a different view, since your post is pretty specifically about adoption", ">\n\nWhat if we take a non-white people example and try to run through this logic?\nImagine a Nigerian couple moves to Norway. They learn English, they adopt the Norwegian culture, they learn the history and adopt the expected social practices. This couple has a child. This child is raised Norwegian, speaks English etc.\nIn this hypothetical example, is the child Norwegian? \nThe problem with philosophy is that it tends to break down when we bring it into the real world. People can exist in gray space between labels. The child can be seen as both Norwegian and not and most people just judge what they think is most important in the category. Or maybe it depends on what is meant in context when discussion of Norwegian identity comes up. Is simply being born there enough or is there something more ephemeral to the identity?", ">\n\nYes, that child is Norwegian with Nigerian heritage. Norwegian is the language they'd be speaking though.", ">\n\nThat is your opinion. That wouldn't be everyone's opinion. That is my point.\nAlso, yeah, dumb mistake on my part. Was half-awake.", ">\n\nImo anyone who thinks otherwise has a whiff of racism.", ">\n\nLuckily, you aren't the arbiter of everyone's identities.", ">\n\nThe combination of culture, heritage and norms you're talking about is generally understood as \"ethnicity\"... \"race\", insofar as it still has any meaning, is basically a proxy for \"looks a certain way / has a certain set of genetics\".\nSo here's the thing: whether or not you belong to an ethnicity boils down to:\n\nWhether you identify with that ethnicity\nWhether enough folks of that ethnicity accept your identification with it\n\nThat's as simple as it is ... it's not a taxonomic structure, it's a social structure, and that means that it's defined socially.\nJapan is an extremely \"racially\" homogenous place (\\~98%), which means that being \"ethnically\" Japanese is highly associated with looking similar to most Japanese people. That means that someone who is adopted and raised by Japanese people, grew up in Japan, speaks Japanese, but doesn't look Japanese might not be accepted by most Japanese people as being ethnically Japanese.\nTo be clear: I don't think a bunch of (presumably non-Japanese) people on a progressive gaming website get to say one way or the other whether a \"white\" person can say they're Japanese ... Japanese people get to say that, because they define how their ethnicity works.\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\nEvery ethnic group has slightly different rules and norms, and that's a-ok.", ">\n\n\nHere's an alternate example: folks of my own ethnic group (I'm Jewish) generally accepts someone as Jewish if:\n\nTheir mother was Jewish\nThey were raised as a Jew\nThey convert to Judaism (the religion associated with ethnic Jews. Not every Jew practices Judaism, but everyone who practices Judaism is a Jew).\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews, nor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.", ">\n\n\nNot that it's super relevant to your point, but it is not true that converts are accepted as Jewish by all Jews\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews -- I never said everyone who belongs to an ethnicity has to expect you, just most. Jews, too, can be jerks.\n\nnor is it true that someone raised as a Jew with no other inherited or ritualized connection to Judaism is Jewish.\n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".", ">\n\n\nIt's certainly true of most Jews\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nI'm not sure how you can be raised as a Jew without any \"ritualized connection to Judaism\".\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.", ">\n\n\nSure, but its not as uncontroversial or factual as you laid it out. \n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nI can't think of a scenario where it really makes sense for this to happen, but if neither of your parents are Jewish and you didn't convert, then by the rules of Judaism, you are not Jewish regardless of how you were raised or what you practice.\n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism", ">\n\n\nIt's uncontroversial to every group of secular, reform and conservative Jews I've met or interacted with -- I am aware that Haredim may view it differently, but am less familiar with their beliefs.\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish. \n\nSure, if you're not born a Jew, then you can't practice Judaism without converting to Judaism, but I can't imagine you'd be adopted by parents who want to raise you as a Jew but don't envision that including practicing Judaism\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.", ">\n\n\nPrejudice isn't exclusively the purview of more orthodox Jews. My father in law is a convert and I've seen plenty of prejudice among conservative and reform Jews, thinking of converts as strange, or as tryhards, or as somehow \"less\" Jewish.\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP. The common opinion in the US is that you're \"American\" by virtue of citizenship ... the prejudiced minority opinion that you're \"less\" American if you don't \"look\" American doesn't really change that fact.\n\nPracticing Judaism doesn't make you Jewish. You're born Jewish, or you convert.\n\nWe're going in circles here, mate. If you're not born Jewish, how can you practice Judaism without converting to Judaism? You can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.", ">\n\n\nThat's fair enough, but I don't think it takes away from my point to OP\n\nYeah, that's literally the first thing I said.\n\nYou can't practice Judaism without being a Jew.\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\nPracticing = behaviors\nBeing = a status", ">\n\n\nOf course you can, because practicing Judaism and being Jewish are not the same thing. You can do all the things Jews do without being Jewish.\n\nDon't think that makes sense from a theological perspective. Judaism is a covenant between God and the Jews; you can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like, but to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\nMany of the practices also require being a Jew. You can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan. E.g., you can't recite the devarim shebikdushah.\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.", ">\n\n\nyou can follow many of the rules voluntarily if you like\n\nThat's practicing Judaism. \n\nbut to be bound by and participate in the covenant requires being a Jew.\n\nAnd that's being Jewish. You totally get the difference. \n\nYou can't participate in a minyan if you aren't a Jew; there are many mitzvot you can't perform without a minyan.\n\nRight. You need to have a minyan, you don't need to be part of one. Women haven't always been allowed to be in a minyan, either, but they were still Jewish. \n\nYour argument is kinda like saying, \"You can practice law without being a lawyer,\" and it's incorrect for the same reason.\n\nYou actually can practice law without being a lawyer. That's what you're doing when you represent yourself in court.", ">\n\nWhile there will be a certain amount of racists saying stupid shit (often even more obnoxiously online) the premiss that everyone accept people of another ethnicity is pretty shake in the best of times, even for minorities or native people that might have lived as long, or longer than the majority ethnicity.\nA country like Japan. Known for pretty much being the example of a monoethnic culture, and being very xenophobic/discriminating against all foreigners... Well, I don't have a surprised face tbh.", ">\n\n\"If you are of white race, you should not be able to claim that you are of Japanese Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nso whether or not you can do something depends on.... your race? wait a minute doesnt that sound like racism. also let me do this.\n\"If you are of black race, you should not be able to claim that you are of french Culture or use that culture to profit and for fame.\"\nthere if you made that adjustment your comment would be removed by the moderators because racism is only ok against white people\ni would give it a 50% chance that you dont even agree with the second statement.", ">\n\nI mean she didn’t claim she is “of Japanese culture” she literally said “I’m Japanese!” because her dad used to make business trips to Japan and she was exposed to some Japanese culture growing up in Cali. That’s a pretty absurd claim.", ">\n\nFor me, the shoe is on the other proverbial foot. I am Gitxsan (Native American) and was taken from my mother at the age of 18 months as part of the Sixties Scoop. Just before turning 3, I was adopted by a German immigrant family. My family brought me to Germany several times, I was fluent in German by age 5, and the city where my adopted mother hails from has accepted me as one of the family. By this logic, am I allowed to claim German heritage?", ">\n\nYou're allowed to do that regardless of race.", ">\n\nI think it blows your mind because you expected some kind of internally consistent logic. It's just emotional shallow reactions.\nSomething about white people making money off of non white people? On most mainstream websites that premise is enough for the vast majority of people to agree? Why? Because it sounds like a thing the good guys on our side would say.", ">\n\nI think intent goes a long way in this discussion. I live in Oklahoma. Native American culture is everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a public place or private business that does not have its influence clearly on display. Many white people wear clothing and jewelry of Native influence. This is not looked at as appropriation. Our former governor, Mary Fallon, had a daughter. She has a band. It is an outright assault on the ears. But that aside, at one venue she decided to don a plastic war bonnet and dance around the stage, provoking the Natives protesting her act. Every Oklahoman with any brains can tell the difference between appropriating a culture and celebrating one. I think most of the country can too. It’s as easy as knowing right from wrong. Use good judgment.", ">\n\nEveryone should have the right to identify with and claim a culture that they feel a connection to, regardless of their race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nCulture is shaped by a variety of factors and should not be limited by one's race or ethnicity.", ">\n\nIt is important to consider the historical and societal context in which someone is claiming a certain culture, as cultural appropriation can be hurtful and disrespectful to marginalized cultures.", ">\n\nIt is important to have an open and respectful dialogue to navigate these complex issues and consider the perspectives of all involved parties.", ">\n\nWere you raised in Japan by missionary parents? Is your audience Japanese, or are you presenting to a mostly none Japanese culture?\nSo much is Just context.\nWhat was your position and where did your privilege come from inside of that culture?\nBlacks and whites were living in the same place but minsrel shows we're still pretty problematic.\nI could see a lot of times when it would be okay, but could you see any situation when it would not be?", ">\n\nRacial gatekeeping is for losers that never go outside and meet people", ">\n\nThat's the naturalization part of immigration.", ">\n\na side note to this post, without getting my own opinion involve its very common for japanese to belive all non japanese looking people to be foreing even when raised in the country so her case might be mixed with japanese prejudicy", ">\n\nFrom a black persons' context, there is a very vivid perspective about this topic in the tv series AtlantaFX S4E10 where Earn, Alfred and Van go to a black owned Japanese restaurant.", ">\n\nIt’s wise to be careful about generalities when abstracting groups of groups of groups like this. When you pull out to a thousand feet lens, humans are generally similar across these somewhat arbitrary divisions. But the close up differences are the whole point and are worth taking into consideration. Especially for when the conversation is so specific that named individuals are involved. \nI do not have anything to say about this one particularly, but arbitrarily ignoring differences does not make arbitrary differences go away. Two wrongs and a right and all that.", ">\n\nIf a baby is born and bred in America, no matter where their for fathers are from they are Americans. Whether they are Asian, African etc. my father was born in America of parents who immigrated from Denmark. He was American.\nHe could have called himself Danish American but American he remained, having served his country for 20 years in the Air force. Is there a law that states he could not have profited from his Danish decent. I don’t think so.", ">\n\nMarcus Samuelson claims his Ethiopian and Swedish heritage. He was born in Ethiopia and was adopted by Swedes and grew up there. He is now an American. How would he not claim his ethnicity or not claim where he grew up.", ">\n\nIn my opinion, if someone is adopted at a young age into a culture different from their parents, they can claim to be from that culture. Example: If a black baby from Kenya is adopted and raised into an Arabic household in Arabia, where he is raised with Arabic culture and is taught their customs and language, then they can claim to be of Arabic culture. What, they're supposed to identify with a Kenyan culture they have no personal ties to? They cannot, however, claim to be ethnically Arab, as that is different.", ">\n\nDepends on which culture. An American going to Africa, learning a trade/custom/whatever and then profiting is unethical given the history of the Western world's exploitation of the entire continent and how that's left most states in Africa. \nI think people understand the extreme example, but they take the polarized stance to every culture. Japan is an interesting one since its always been isolationist, and has never been conquered by a Western power. But there has been a history of anti-Asian, and specifically anti-Japanese sentiment.\nWith respect to appropriation in Japan, as an American it's likely hard to relate since we don't have a long history of customs and culture. But there is the fetishizing of Japanese culture. The closest thing we probably have is religion. The reverse example would be a non-Christian country dressing up as knock off Jesus. I'm sure people would be mad at that in some way.", ">\n\n\nDepends on which culture. An American going to Africa, learning a trade/custom/whatever and then profiting is unethical given the history of the Western world's exploitation of the entire continent and how that's left most states in Africa.\n\nWhy exactly is this unethical? Like, I understand that the history of the Western world's exploitation of the African continent is unethical... but why does that translate into it being wrong for, say, a white American chef to incorporate Ethiopian-inspired dishes into their cuisine, or for a white musician to play a traditional Nigerian instrument on an album? What harm is being done by either of these things?", ">\n\n\nbut why does that translate into it being wrong for, say, a white American chef to incorporate Ethiopian-inspired dishes into their cuisine,\n\nI spoke in absolutes but my intention wasn't to communicate it was an absolute. I think there's no single rule. I was more using Africa as the region as the extreme case with a history of exploitation, vs a country like Japan. \nFor example, a chef celebrating some Ethiopian dishes is much different than opening a chain of Ethiopian restaurants back in the states. Obviously a lot of gray area in between.\nGenerally I view some instances as cultural tourism fueled by white guilt. An extreme case is white missionaries taking trips to Africa to \"work\" for 3 weeks, take pictures with black people, and then go home. Maybe they wear a traditional piece of clothing and discuss their time there." ]