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I know. It's called a joke. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means"
] |
>
So, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke."
] |
>
in terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to "believe", that we silently gave them migs. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch."
] |
>
The real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were.
But if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them
As an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷 | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs."
] |
>
There are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.
And let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.
They are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China... | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷"
] |
>
The corruptiok problem was due to russia
Orange revolution, euro maidan etc etc | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China..."
] |
>
Sure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc"
] |
>
Not so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow."
] |
>
Correct, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard."
] |
>
It's just policy creep. "We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine" -> "We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery" -> "We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position" -> "We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased" -> "We will be sending Leopard tanks".
Each step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts."
] |
>
as shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines
sending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery
they will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back."
] |
>
Germany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine.
AA that can deal with drones.
The most modern self propelled artillery.
IVF.
Upgraded HIMARS.
And a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc.
I don't know where you think this is shitty. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time"
] |
>
Finally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty."
] |
>
Does anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent? | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in."
] |
>
Edit: to be more clear.
No it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?"
] |
>
Sabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now… | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example."
] |
>
Hey Switzerland, take note. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…"
] |
>
Best they can do is fuck Taiwan. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note."
] |
>
I wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan."
] |
>
Seems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians."
] |
>
Ukraine will run out of men long before Russia does. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict."
] |
>
Fantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does."
] |
>
Okay, let's get the "Tracks" turning... send them... asap! | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit."
] |
>
It better not be just Poland... Germany. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!"
] |
>
Good God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.
At least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany."
] |
>
Poland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it.
That is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s."
] |
>
Lol. Germany is giving permission after Poland has already decided, to save face. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s.",
">\n\nPoland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it. \nThat is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure."
] |
>
That's kinda how exports work. Same reason no one sent patriots until US gave go ahead or why nobody is sending Spikes because Israel said no
Mind you Poland hasn't actually made a request to Germany at any point, they said it on TV and that's about it. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s.",
">\n\nPoland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it. \nThat is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure.",
">\n\nLol. Germany is giving permission after Poland has already decided, to save face."
] |
>
I know. For instance, i am fully aware of agreements between countries that require the consent of the originating country when exporting to a third party. What i mean is that Poland really doesn't care what Germany has to say in the matter when it comes to sending weapons to fight Russia, they literally could not give a fuck. Germany is saving face by pretending that they had any influence. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s.",
">\n\nPoland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it. \nThat is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure.",
">\n\nLol. Germany is giving permission after Poland has already decided, to save face.",
">\n\nThat's kinda how exports work. Same reason no one sent patriots until US gave go ahead or why nobody is sending Spikes because Israel said no\nMind you Poland hasn't actually made a request to Germany at any point, they said it on TV and that's about it."
] |
>
Poland sure cares because countries do not like selling sensitive gear to unreliable partners. PiS likes to posture themselves aggressively because it sells well to domestic audience and elections are coming up.
If they didn't care they would have just done it, instead they announced it and did nothing towards getting it done. This is all a show because France, Germany and US did a thing last week and Poland didn't. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s.",
">\n\nPoland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it. \nThat is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure.",
">\n\nLol. Germany is giving permission after Poland has already decided, to save face.",
">\n\nThat's kinda how exports work. Same reason no one sent patriots until US gave go ahead or why nobody is sending Spikes because Israel said no\nMind you Poland hasn't actually made a request to Germany at any point, they said it on TV and that's about it.",
">\n\nI know. For instance, i am fully aware of agreements between countries that require the consent of the originating country when exporting to a third party. What i mean is that Poland really doesn't care what Germany has to say in the matter when it comes to sending weapons to fight Russia, they literally could not give a fuck. Germany is saving face by pretending that they had any influence."
] |
>
Could be, there is merit to what you are saying. So in that case maybe its not so much Germany saving face as calling them out? Could it also be that they are not so worried about it because of the deals that they are making with South Korea, Poland i mean? | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s.",
">\n\nPoland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it. \nThat is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure.",
">\n\nLol. Germany is giving permission after Poland has already decided, to save face.",
">\n\nThat's kinda how exports work. Same reason no one sent patriots until US gave go ahead or why nobody is sending Spikes because Israel said no\nMind you Poland hasn't actually made a request to Germany at any point, they said it on TV and that's about it.",
">\n\nI know. For instance, i am fully aware of agreements between countries that require the consent of the originating country when exporting to a third party. What i mean is that Poland really doesn't care what Germany has to say in the matter when it comes to sending weapons to fight Russia, they literally could not give a fuck. Germany is saving face by pretending that they had any influence.",
">\n\nPoland sure cares because countries do not like selling sensitive gear to unreliable partners. PiS likes to posture themselves aggressively because it sells well to domestic audience and elections are coming up.\nIf they didn't care they would have just done it, instead they announced it and did nothing towards getting it done. This is all a show because France, Germany and US did a thing last week and Poland didn't."
] |
>
Tf does Germany have to say whether Poland wants to send equipment to Ukraine? | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s.",
">\n\nPoland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it. \nThat is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure.",
">\n\nLol. Germany is giving permission after Poland has already decided, to save face.",
">\n\nThat's kinda how exports work. Same reason no one sent patriots until US gave go ahead or why nobody is sending Spikes because Israel said no\nMind you Poland hasn't actually made a request to Germany at any point, they said it on TV and that's about it.",
">\n\nI know. For instance, i am fully aware of agreements between countries that require the consent of the originating country when exporting to a third party. What i mean is that Poland really doesn't care what Germany has to say in the matter when it comes to sending weapons to fight Russia, they literally could not give a fuck. Germany is saving face by pretending that they had any influence.",
">\n\nPoland sure cares because countries do not like selling sensitive gear to unreliable partners. PiS likes to posture themselves aggressively because it sells well to domestic audience and elections are coming up.\nIf they didn't care they would have just done it, instead they announced it and did nothing towards getting it done. This is all a show because France, Germany and US did a thing last week and Poland didn't.",
">\n\nCould be, there is merit to what you are saying. So in that case maybe its not so much Germany saving face as calling them out? Could it also be that they are not so worried about it because of the deals that they are making with South Korea, Poland i mean?"
] |
>
End User Certificates. | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s.",
">\n\nPoland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it. \nThat is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure.",
">\n\nLol. Germany is giving permission after Poland has already decided, to save face.",
">\n\nThat's kinda how exports work. Same reason no one sent patriots until US gave go ahead or why nobody is sending Spikes because Israel said no\nMind you Poland hasn't actually made a request to Germany at any point, they said it on TV and that's about it.",
">\n\nI know. For instance, i am fully aware of agreements between countries that require the consent of the originating country when exporting to a third party. What i mean is that Poland really doesn't care what Germany has to say in the matter when it comes to sending weapons to fight Russia, they literally could not give a fuck. Germany is saving face by pretending that they had any influence.",
">\n\nPoland sure cares because countries do not like selling sensitive gear to unreliable partners. PiS likes to posture themselves aggressively because it sells well to domestic audience and elections are coming up.\nIf they didn't care they would have just done it, instead they announced it and did nothing towards getting it done. This is all a show because France, Germany and US did a thing last week and Poland didn't.",
">\n\nCould be, there is merit to what you are saying. So in that case maybe its not so much Germany saving face as calling them out? Could it also be that they are not so worried about it because of the deals that they are making with South Korea, Poland i mean?",
">\n\nTf does Germany have to say whether Poland wants to send equipment to Ukraine?"
] |
> | [
"This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nBERLIN - Germany should not stand in the way if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Vice Chancellor Robert Habeck said Thursday, seemingly putting the ball in Warsaw's court on supplying Kyiv with Western tanks.\nPolish President Andrzej Duda said Wednesday that a Polish \"Company of Leopard tanks for Ukraine will be transferred as part of international coalition building,\" adding that \"Such a decision is already [taken] in Poland.\" However, it was unclear whether Warsaw would get Berlin's approval, given the Leopard 2 tanks are made in Germany and have restrictions about being re-exported.\nAlthough German Chancellor Olaf Scholz can, in theory, have the final word on whether Poland's German-made tanks go to Ukraine, Habeck's public statement will make it difficult for him to say no without fracturing his ruling coalition.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: tanks^#1 Ukraine^#2 Germany^#3 Poland^#4 Leopard^#5",
">\n\nGiven that Russia might be running out of tanks to generously abandon in Ukraine, since they've been reaching into museums to refurbish T62s, I think I can comfortably say \"bout time!\"",
">\n\n\nto refurbish T62\n\nWe have seen 1967 model T-62s already, totally unupgraded (Apart from a cope cage)",
">\n\n\ncope cage\n\nThanks for the absolute laugh lmao\nWhen will we start seeing t34 hulls with some sort of gun strapped onto them?",
">\n\nI can’t wait until they roll out a tractor covered in corrugated sheet metal.",
">\n\nAh yes, the good ol Bob Semple Tank.",
">\n\nWell a Bob Semple, but somehow even worse at being a tank and smelling like expired MREs and Vodka.",
">\n\nWould leopards even make a difference?",
">\n\nOn a tactical level? Sure. Leopard 2s aren't exactly a shitbox tank. Deployed together and with the proper support they can be a great offensive and defensive tool.\nOn a wider level? Probably not. There's only so much 14 Leopard 2s will be able to do to change the entirety of the war.",
">\n\nPoland have 250 leopard 2 tanks, 14 would be about 5% of their stock. They will probably send more in the future. \nEurope has about 2000 Leo 2, would 5% be sent then it would matter, would 10-20% be sent then some real results could be achieved!",
">\n\nPoland also is buying a shit ton of tanks and it makes sense on a financial basis that giving these tanks away is cheaper than maintaining them so why not give them to Ukraine",
">\n\nGerman armor rolling against Russians again. This world is a crazy place.",
">\n\nCame here to say this. What year is it again?",
">\n\n44 apparently.",
">\n\nExcept this timez the Americans are on the German's side.",
">\n\nIF this is true then Russia's so fucked.",
">\n\nUltimately, they will be when F-16 birds are landed in Ukraine.",
">\n\nF16’s, if ever approved, would be a super long time until they’d ever get to Ukraine.",
">\n\nI dunno man. They're pretty fast!",
">\n\nNot what that means",
">\n\nI know. It's called a joke.",
">\n\nSo, lets see if Poland actually pulls through with delivering them, or if this is just another PiS-stunt like the jets, the repair centers or the Ringtausch.",
">\n\nin terms of Migs, they were smart, back then we weren't sure if the whole NATO is behind such way of supporting Ukraine. Moreover, I have reasons to \"believe\", that we silently gave them migs.",
">\n\nThe real reason Ukrainians do not have the best and newest tech right this second, is because countries don’t want their weapon systems to be exposed like Russia’s were. \nBut if they perform well it will give the defence contractors huge business. So a country like Germany is weighing those risks. At least I would think this is why everyone is so hesitant to send them\nAs an example look at the orders for the Javelins coming in. They can’t make them fast enough. And Putin can’t find buyer’s for his shit anymore 🤷",
">\n\nThere are also security concerns about weapons technology. You can bet that every intelligence agency is in Ukrainian.\nAnd let me make this very clear, I support Ukraine, but they aren't known to be the most reliable and had/have a huge corruption problem.\nThey are by far not the only ones. In the past Israel also had a history of selling western weapons technology to China...",
">\n\nThe corruptiok problem was due to russia\nOrange revolution, euro maidan etc etc",
">\n\nSure they can, and so can Germany, quit screwing around and blow these fools back to Moscow.",
">\n\nNot so sure. Laws dictate that the country of origin has to approve before weaponry can legally be sent someplace else. It’s what prevents Germany from sending the swiss made ammo for the Gepard.",
">\n\nCorrect, this article explains that Germany has approved the sending of tanks they set to Poland. I am suggest Germany now also send tanks. My opinion does not contradict facts.",
">\n\nIt's just policy creep. \"We will not allow German arms to be sent to Ukraine\" -> \"We will send some German arms, but not tanks/heavy artillery\" -> \"We will not allow Poland to send Tanks, as this is our position\" -> \"We will allow Poland to send the Leopard tanks they have purchased\" -> \"We will be sending Leopard tanks\".\nEach step is supposed to be a bartering position intended to illustrate a broader strategy. Tactics are used to achieve strategic goals. The reason for these tactics is supposed to keep Russia guessing as well as preventing a quick escalation - something that Russia now wants very desperately. The more relative success Ukraine has with fewer weaponry, the better the outcome of the war will be. Ideally, the tanks being sent is the straw that will break the proverbial Camels back.",
">\n\nas shitty as German goverment has been on military aid,they progressively cross red lines\nsending armoured vehicles from now on is considered an unimportant issue,as well as sending artillery\nthey will cross the red line eventually on tanks,but i hate it takes so much time",
">\n\nGermany send some of the best equipment to Ukraine. \nAA that can deal with drones.\nThe most modern self propelled artillery. \nIVF.\nUpgraded HIMARS.\nAnd a ton of small arms, rocket launchers, etc. \nI don't know where you think this is shitty.",
">\n\nFinally, something for the Ukrainians to put their leopards in.",
">\n\nDoes anyone know what the consequences of such a thing are under international law? Does this make Poland a co-belligerent?",
">\n\nEdit: to be more clear. \nNo it does not make Poland a co-belligerent. Legally it is no different than sending any other weapon system. Rifles for example.",
">\n\nSabaton’s gonna have a new tank battle to write a song about now…",
">\n\nHey Switzerland, take note.",
">\n\nBest they can do is fuck Taiwan.",
">\n\nI wish our elected leaders could stop wringing their hands about giving Ukraine the weapons they need to fight the Russians. It is pretty clear at this point Russia isn't starting WW3 as long as the West doesn't directly intervene, give them what they need so that the Russians get pushed out, the longer this goes on the worse it is for the Ukrainians.",
">\n\nSeems like Russia is so screwed. They are fighting against entire West (indirectly, with Ukraine's soldiers). There is no way Russia wins this conflict.",
">\n\nUkraine will run out of men long before Russia does.",
">\n\nFantastic news! Hoping more countries will follow suit.",
">\n\nOkay, let's get the \"Tracks\" turning... send them... asap!",
">\n\nIt better not be just Poland... Germany.",
">\n\nGood God. One of these countries just needs to take the lead and stop playing these weird games. Seriously, what's these back and forth signalling between Poland and Germany? Happened previously with the Patriot Systems.\nAt least it seems UK is set to give Challenger 2s.",
">\n\nPoland needs to request it and Germany needs to approve it. \nThat is not really back and forth, it's just a normal procedure.",
">\n\nLol. Germany is giving permission after Poland has already decided, to save face.",
">\n\nThat's kinda how exports work. Same reason no one sent patriots until US gave go ahead or why nobody is sending Spikes because Israel said no\nMind you Poland hasn't actually made a request to Germany at any point, they said it on TV and that's about it.",
">\n\nI know. For instance, i am fully aware of agreements between countries that require the consent of the originating country when exporting to a third party. What i mean is that Poland really doesn't care what Germany has to say in the matter when it comes to sending weapons to fight Russia, they literally could not give a fuck. Germany is saving face by pretending that they had any influence.",
">\n\nPoland sure cares because countries do not like selling sensitive gear to unreliable partners. PiS likes to posture themselves aggressively because it sells well to domestic audience and elections are coming up.\nIf they didn't care they would have just done it, instead they announced it and did nothing towards getting it done. This is all a show because France, Germany and US did a thing last week and Poland didn't.",
">\n\nCould be, there is merit to what you are saying. So in that case maybe its not so much Germany saving face as calling them out? Could it also be that they are not so worried about it because of the deals that they are making with South Korea, Poland i mean?",
">\n\nTf does Germany have to say whether Poland wants to send equipment to Ukraine?",
">\n\nEnd User Certificates."
] |
Then tell me im pretty | [] |
>
you look pretty today 🥰 | [
"Then tell me im pretty"
] |
>
I don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰"
] |
>
Last time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know."
] |
>
The last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol"
] |
>
My last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments."
] |
>
pretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments."
] |
>
My gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.
Edit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship"
] |
>
I tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs."
] |
>
Was told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day."
] |
>
But I would know you're lying | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty."
] |
>
Most women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying"
] |
>
Id much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie."
] |
>
I can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth"
] |
>
Why would it be weird to be called beautiful? Anything can be beautiful, a sunset, a dog, a woman, a man, etc. Beautiful just means pleasing to the senses. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth",
">\n\nI can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird."
] |
>
Nature or nurture, take your pick. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth",
">\n\nI can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird.",
">\n\nWhy would it be weird to be called beautiful? Anything can be beautiful, a sunset, a dog, a woman, a man, etc. Beautiful just means pleasing to the senses."
] |
>
Tell me I’m pretty! | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth",
">\n\nI can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird.",
">\n\nWhy would it be weird to be called beautiful? Anything can be beautiful, a sunset, a dog, a woman, a man, etc. Beautiful just means pleasing to the senses.",
">\n\nNature or nurture, take your pick."
] |
>
My friends say I'm looking great or good looking. Not pretty, and I think it's great how it is. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth",
">\n\nI can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird.",
">\n\nWhy would it be weird to be called beautiful? Anything can be beautiful, a sunset, a dog, a woman, a man, etc. Beautiful just means pleasing to the senses.",
">\n\nNature or nurture, take your pick.",
">\n\nTell me I’m pretty!"
] |
>
Nah, don't want them to get the wrong idea. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth",
">\n\nI can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird.",
">\n\nWhy would it be weird to be called beautiful? Anything can be beautiful, a sunset, a dog, a woman, a man, etc. Beautiful just means pleasing to the senses.",
">\n\nNature or nurture, take your pick.",
">\n\nTell me I’m pretty!",
">\n\nMy friends say I'm looking great or good looking. Not pretty, and I think it's great how it is."
] |
>
Eh, i still prefer handsome or cute or something. I had a gay guy call me pretty once and it didn’t land. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth",
">\n\nI can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird.",
">\n\nWhy would it be weird to be called beautiful? Anything can be beautiful, a sunset, a dog, a woman, a man, etc. Beautiful just means pleasing to the senses.",
">\n\nNature or nurture, take your pick.",
">\n\nTell me I’m pretty!",
">\n\nMy friends say I'm looking great or good looking. Not pretty, and I think it's great how it is.",
">\n\nNah, don't want them to get the wrong idea."
] |
>
As a gay man, I always try to compliment other men in the office on their choice of shirt or shoes or how they did their hair. Men so rarely get compliments.
I try to use the same rule as complementing women…..always comment on a choice they have made, not their body or anything like that.
I’ve had one or two guys admit that their girlfriend:wife called them out on wearing their “nice shirt” multiple date nights in a row. They realized they favored it because their gay friend thought it looked good on them. | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth",
">\n\nI can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird.",
">\n\nWhy would it be weird to be called beautiful? Anything can be beautiful, a sunset, a dog, a woman, a man, etc. Beautiful just means pleasing to the senses.",
">\n\nNature or nurture, take your pick.",
">\n\nTell me I’m pretty!",
">\n\nMy friends say I'm looking great or good looking. Not pretty, and I think it's great how it is.",
">\n\nNah, don't want them to get the wrong idea.",
">\n\nEh, i still prefer handsome or cute or something. I had a gay guy call me pretty once and it didn’t land."
] |
> | [
"Then tell me im pretty",
">\n\nyou look pretty today 🥰",
">\n\nI don’t know that the average man really is concerned about how often they get called pretty. That’s probably the main contributor to this fact. If I go long enough without telling my wife she’s beautiful, I know.",
">\n\nLast time someone told me I was beautiful was my mom, she died 14yrs ago lol",
">\n\nThe last thing men need is to run on an economy of hollow compliments.",
">\n\nMy last gf was the last time for me. Pretty unusual to just get random compliments.",
">\n\npretty standard not to get any affection unless in a relationship",
">\n\nMy gf says stuff like this almost every day. Before we got together? Probably my mom when I was a newborn, that’d be the last time.\nEdit: I just remembered this one really attractive girl in my hs said I had “pretty eyes.” Too bad it took me until my second year of college to realize she probably liked me. She said that my freshman year of hs.",
">\n\nI tell my husband he’s beautiful every single day.",
">\n\nWas told I was handsome a lot. I think that is the guy version of pretty.",
">\n\nBut I would know you're lying",
">\n\nMost women don’t find most men to be attractive, so that would be a lie.",
">\n\nId much rather be told im pretty or beautiful then hot or sexy. Its the truth",
">\n\nI can't tell if this is popular or unpopular. As a guy I've never once thought that men wanted to be called pretty or beautiful. At least I've never wanted that. To be honest, I'd think it was kinda weird.",
">\n\nWhy would it be weird to be called beautiful? Anything can be beautiful, a sunset, a dog, a woman, a man, etc. Beautiful just means pleasing to the senses.",
">\n\nNature or nurture, take your pick.",
">\n\nTell me I’m pretty!",
">\n\nMy friends say I'm looking great or good looking. Not pretty, and I think it's great how it is.",
">\n\nNah, don't want them to get the wrong idea.",
">\n\nEh, i still prefer handsome or cute or something. I had a gay guy call me pretty once and it didn’t land.",
">\n\nAs a gay man, I always try to compliment other men in the office on their choice of shirt or shoes or how they did their hair. Men so rarely get compliments. \nI try to use the same rule as complementing women…..always comment on a choice they have made, not their body or anything like that. \nI’ve had one or two guys admit that their girlfriend:wife called them out on wearing their “nice shirt” multiple date nights in a row. They realized they favored it because their gay friend thought it looked good on them."
] |
1 : investigate .
2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .
3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .
4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .
5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .
EDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : ) | [] |
>
I'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.
I know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.
Plenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.
Both sides are in no way the same.
They demonstrate it with every scandal and issue. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )"
] |
>
Exactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:
1) Obama declassified them with his mind.
2) They were planted by the FBI.
3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.
4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.
If Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue."
] |
>
I 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.
Not trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.
Let's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.
Had Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.
The fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024."
] |
>
The problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines."
] |
>
That's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.
The still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it). | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access."
] |
>
So what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?
Will he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?
Edit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it)."
] |
>
Trump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.
To answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.
We are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law."
] |
>
I noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them."
] |
>
I don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama.
If I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action."
] |
>
This should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked.
Any President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.
Period. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight."
] |
>
They just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to... | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government."
] |
>
This. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules... | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to..."
] |
>
People with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.
"Rules for thee but not for me" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules..."
] |
>
Yes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point."
] |
>
The GOP in a nutshell:
Democrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.
Republican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out."
] |
>
Legal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero."
] |
>
It’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them."
] |
>
Let me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.
but
This is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about
Trump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.
Bidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant."
] |
>
No, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.
Also remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something."
] |
>
A normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash."
] |
>
Given that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time."
] |
>
because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice
How I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems "lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)". | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet"
] |
>
This is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\"."
] |
>
On the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this"
] |
>
I’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails."
] |
>
I'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around."
] |
>
There is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself "WTF?"
Documents in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.
And it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.
Plus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing? | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024."
] |
>
For sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?"
] |
>
"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today."
Yeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that "It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today."
] |
>
I can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical."
] |
>
Yep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence."
] |
>
What?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response."
] |
>
I mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy."
] |
>
If the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0."
] |
>
The difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.
There is a difference between being a supporter and a follower. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them."
] |
>
This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong
Where were you in the last threads?
Yeah former journalist here: this story reeks of ...something. NBC News Exclusive with a one source on background so deep there's no attributable information including an overview of possible job title? No additional information is known by this single source, as evidenced by this:
The classification level, number and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear. It also was not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the Obama administration is complete.
When you get info like this, you want it backed up by at least one other source, even if they also remain anonymous. It's most likely that what's being reported is true and that's why they're running with it but my post-Judith Miller journalism education means my spidey sense is tingling on this one. Call it racing for a scoop, call it inadequate sourcing, I just hope they can back this one up better than they did in their public reporting. If this turns out to be inaccurate it's unfathomably bad
700 upvotes.
--
Seriously this sounds fishy as fuck.
How would cnn know what was in the files when bidens people didn’t open them. How would cnn know how many documents were there?
This reeks of…. Something.
140 upvotes
--
In unrelated news, CNN was bought by a conservative billionaire seeking to turn the network into Fox 2.0 a while back
140 upvotes
--
Oh I know. That’s what I mean.
How do they have this information when no one on bidens team knows this stuff.
40 upvotes
--
Hey, look, a media outlet owned by a gigantic conglomerate carrying water for Republican bullshit! How curious!
I mean it could also be simple clickbaiting too, because, you know, journalistic standards can always be degraded further, I guess. Either way, something definitely smells with this one. Maybe there will be better corroboration elsewhere.
80 upvotes
--
Okay, bad or fake news media accusations aside, what's way more fun are the conspiracy theories!!
--
Odd that they're popping up now, given the circumstances.
Even odder how they all seem to only deal directly with Biden and nothing else.
Even odder when you consider a large part of the secret service decided to delete their own texts when ordered to produce them before the January 6th committee and are likely still loyal to the man who attempted a coup and remain so suspect that the current president has indicated multiple times that he doesn't trust them.
Just odd.
45 upvotes, over 10 replies, only one of them (at the very bottom) calling them out for the qanon crap. Planted by the Secret Service, Biden would never do that!!! | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them.",
">\n\nThe difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.\nThere is a difference between being a supporter and a follower."
] |
>
Yeah I'm relieved by how sane this thread is compared to that last one.
Turns out "THE EVIL LYING MSM" is a nonpartisan position I guess :/ | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them.",
">\n\nThe difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.\nThere is a difference between being a supporter and a follower.",
">\n\n\nThis isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong\n\nWhere were you in the last threads?\n\nYeah former journalist here: this story reeks of ...something. NBC News Exclusive with a one source on background so deep there's no attributable information including an overview of possible job title? No additional information is known by this single source, as evidenced by this:\n\nThe classification level, number and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear. It also was not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the Obama administration is complete.\n\nWhen you get info like this, you want it backed up by at least one other source, even if they also remain anonymous. It's most likely that what's being reported is true and that's why they're running with it but my post-Judith Miller journalism education means my spidey sense is tingling on this one. Call it racing for a scoop, call it inadequate sourcing, I just hope they can back this one up better than they did in their public reporting. If this turns out to be inaccurate it's unfathomably bad\n\n700 upvotes.\n--\n\n\nSeriously this sounds fishy as fuck.\n\nHow would cnn know what was in the files when bidens people didn’t open them. How would cnn know how many documents were there?\nThis reeks of…. Something. \n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nIn unrelated news, CNN was bought by a conservative billionaire seeking to turn the network into Fox 2.0 a while back\n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nOh I know. That’s what I mean.\nHow do they have this information when no one on bidens team knows this stuff.\n\n40 upvotes\n--\n\nHey, look, a media outlet owned by a gigantic conglomerate carrying water for Republican bullshit! How curious!\nI mean it could also be simple clickbaiting too, because, you know, journalistic standards can always be degraded further, I guess. Either way, something definitely smells with this one. Maybe there will be better corroboration elsewhere.\n\n80 upvotes\n--\nOkay, bad or fake news media accusations aside, what's way more fun are the conspiracy theories!!\n--\n\nOdd that they're popping up now, given the circumstances.\nEven odder how they all seem to only deal directly with Biden and nothing else.\nEven odder when you consider a large part of the secret service decided to delete their own texts when ordered to produce them before the January 6th committee and are likely still loyal to the man who attempted a coup and remain so suspect that the current president has indicated multiple times that he doesn't trust them.\nJust odd.\n\n45 upvotes, over 10 replies, only one of them (at the very bottom) calling them out for the qanon crap. Planted by the Secret Service, Biden would never do that!!!"
] |
>
It blows republicans minds that democrats want to see this investigated. So outside their character to investigate a non-enemy, seems crazy to them. Kind of reminds me of when Desantis flew those migrants to Martha’s Vineyard thinking liberals would send them packing. Blew their minds when they were welcomed with open arms. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them.",
">\n\nThe difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.\nThere is a difference between being a supporter and a follower.",
">\n\n\nThis isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong\n\nWhere were you in the last threads?\n\nYeah former journalist here: this story reeks of ...something. NBC News Exclusive with a one source on background so deep there's no attributable information including an overview of possible job title? No additional information is known by this single source, as evidenced by this:\n\nThe classification level, number and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear. It also was not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the Obama administration is complete.\n\nWhen you get info like this, you want it backed up by at least one other source, even if they also remain anonymous. It's most likely that what's being reported is true and that's why they're running with it but my post-Judith Miller journalism education means my spidey sense is tingling on this one. Call it racing for a scoop, call it inadequate sourcing, I just hope they can back this one up better than they did in their public reporting. If this turns out to be inaccurate it's unfathomably bad\n\n700 upvotes.\n--\n\n\nSeriously this sounds fishy as fuck.\n\nHow would cnn know what was in the files when bidens people didn’t open them. How would cnn know how many documents were there?\nThis reeks of…. Something. \n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nIn unrelated news, CNN was bought by a conservative billionaire seeking to turn the network into Fox 2.0 a while back\n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nOh I know. That’s what I mean.\nHow do they have this information when no one on bidens team knows this stuff.\n\n40 upvotes\n--\n\nHey, look, a media outlet owned by a gigantic conglomerate carrying water for Republican bullshit! How curious!\nI mean it could also be simple clickbaiting too, because, you know, journalistic standards can always be degraded further, I guess. Either way, something definitely smells with this one. Maybe there will be better corroboration elsewhere.\n\n80 upvotes\n--\nOkay, bad or fake news media accusations aside, what's way more fun are the conspiracy theories!!\n--\n\nOdd that they're popping up now, given the circumstances.\nEven odder how they all seem to only deal directly with Biden and nothing else.\nEven odder when you consider a large part of the secret service decided to delete their own texts when ordered to produce them before the January 6th committee and are likely still loyal to the man who attempted a coup and remain so suspect that the current president has indicated multiple times that he doesn't trust them.\nJust odd.\n\n45 upvotes, over 10 replies, only one of them (at the very bottom) calling them out for the qanon crap. Planted by the Secret Service, Biden would never do that!!!",
">\n\nYeah I'm relieved by how sane this thread is compared to that last one. \nTurns out \"THE EVIL LYING MSM\" is a nonpartisan position I guess :/"
] |
>
The key differences here though, Biden is cooperating with investigators. He isn't trying to cover it up, he isn't trying to obstruct the process, he isn't trying to retroactively declassify with his mind, and he isn't going on the road to call this a hoax or play down what was discovered.
That being said, this was from when he was VP and the first documents were found in 2017 as far as I can see. They discovered more recently and of course Biden has been very forthcoming with handling this and as far as I can tell Biden has not attempted to sell or give these documents away.
Trump, was president for 4 miserable years, took these files and actively tried to hold onto them. Only turning some over and not everything, and even worse tries to downplay it and even look for loopholes to get out of it or generate conspiracy theories. Whether Trump intended to sell these documents or give them away is unknown but possible. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them.",
">\n\nThe difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.\nThere is a difference between being a supporter and a follower.",
">\n\n\nThis isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong\n\nWhere were you in the last threads?\n\nYeah former journalist here: this story reeks of ...something. NBC News Exclusive with a one source on background so deep there's no attributable information including an overview of possible job title? No additional information is known by this single source, as evidenced by this:\n\nThe classification level, number and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear. It also was not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the Obama administration is complete.\n\nWhen you get info like this, you want it backed up by at least one other source, even if they also remain anonymous. It's most likely that what's being reported is true and that's why they're running with it but my post-Judith Miller journalism education means my spidey sense is tingling on this one. Call it racing for a scoop, call it inadequate sourcing, I just hope they can back this one up better than they did in their public reporting. If this turns out to be inaccurate it's unfathomably bad\n\n700 upvotes.\n--\n\n\nSeriously this sounds fishy as fuck.\n\nHow would cnn know what was in the files when bidens people didn’t open them. How would cnn know how many documents were there?\nThis reeks of…. Something. \n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nIn unrelated news, CNN was bought by a conservative billionaire seeking to turn the network into Fox 2.0 a while back\n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nOh I know. That’s what I mean.\nHow do they have this information when no one on bidens team knows this stuff.\n\n40 upvotes\n--\n\nHey, look, a media outlet owned by a gigantic conglomerate carrying water for Republican bullshit! How curious!\nI mean it could also be simple clickbaiting too, because, you know, journalistic standards can always be degraded further, I guess. Either way, something definitely smells with this one. Maybe there will be better corroboration elsewhere.\n\n80 upvotes\n--\nOkay, bad or fake news media accusations aside, what's way more fun are the conspiracy theories!!\n--\n\nOdd that they're popping up now, given the circumstances.\nEven odder how they all seem to only deal directly with Biden and nothing else.\nEven odder when you consider a large part of the secret service decided to delete their own texts when ordered to produce them before the January 6th committee and are likely still loyal to the man who attempted a coup and remain so suspect that the current president has indicated multiple times that he doesn't trust them.\nJust odd.\n\n45 upvotes, over 10 replies, only one of them (at the very bottom) calling them out for the qanon crap. Planted by the Secret Service, Biden would never do that!!!",
">\n\nYeah I'm relieved by how sane this thread is compared to that last one. \nTurns out \"THE EVIL LYING MSM\" is a nonpartisan position I guess :/",
">\n\nIt blows republicans minds that democrats want to see this investigated. So outside their character to investigate a non-enemy, seems crazy to them. Kind of reminds me of when Desantis flew those migrants to Martha’s Vineyard thinking liberals would send them packing. Blew their minds when they were welcomed with open arms."
] |
>
Every former president sweating bullets and checking their armoires right now. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them.",
">\n\nThe difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.\nThere is a difference between being a supporter and a follower.",
">\n\n\nThis isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong\n\nWhere were you in the last threads?\n\nYeah former journalist here: this story reeks of ...something. NBC News Exclusive with a one source on background so deep there's no attributable information including an overview of possible job title? No additional information is known by this single source, as evidenced by this:\n\nThe classification level, number and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear. It also was not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the Obama administration is complete.\n\nWhen you get info like this, you want it backed up by at least one other source, even if they also remain anonymous. It's most likely that what's being reported is true and that's why they're running with it but my post-Judith Miller journalism education means my spidey sense is tingling on this one. Call it racing for a scoop, call it inadequate sourcing, I just hope they can back this one up better than they did in their public reporting. If this turns out to be inaccurate it's unfathomably bad\n\n700 upvotes.\n--\n\n\nSeriously this sounds fishy as fuck.\n\nHow would cnn know what was in the files when bidens people didn’t open them. How would cnn know how many documents were there?\nThis reeks of…. Something. \n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nIn unrelated news, CNN was bought by a conservative billionaire seeking to turn the network into Fox 2.0 a while back\n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nOh I know. That’s what I mean.\nHow do they have this information when no one on bidens team knows this stuff.\n\n40 upvotes\n--\n\nHey, look, a media outlet owned by a gigantic conglomerate carrying water for Republican bullshit! How curious!\nI mean it could also be simple clickbaiting too, because, you know, journalistic standards can always be degraded further, I guess. Either way, something definitely smells with this one. Maybe there will be better corroboration elsewhere.\n\n80 upvotes\n--\nOkay, bad or fake news media accusations aside, what's way more fun are the conspiracy theories!!\n--\n\nOdd that they're popping up now, given the circumstances.\nEven odder how they all seem to only deal directly with Biden and nothing else.\nEven odder when you consider a large part of the secret service decided to delete their own texts when ordered to produce them before the January 6th committee and are likely still loyal to the man who attempted a coup and remain so suspect that the current president has indicated multiple times that he doesn't trust them.\nJust odd.\n\n45 upvotes, over 10 replies, only one of them (at the very bottom) calling them out for the qanon crap. Planted by the Secret Service, Biden would never do that!!!",
">\n\nYeah I'm relieved by how sane this thread is compared to that last one. \nTurns out \"THE EVIL LYING MSM\" is a nonpartisan position I guess :/",
">\n\nIt blows republicans minds that democrats want to see this investigated. So outside their character to investigate a non-enemy, seems crazy to them. Kind of reminds me of when Desantis flew those migrants to Martha’s Vineyard thinking liberals would send them packing. Blew their minds when they were welcomed with open arms.",
">\n\nThe key differences here though, Biden is cooperating with investigators. He isn't trying to cover it up, he isn't trying to obstruct the process, he isn't trying to retroactively declassify with his mind, and he isn't going on the road to call this a hoax or play down what was discovered.\nThat being said, this was from when he was VP and the first documents were found in 2017 as far as I can see. They discovered more recently and of course Biden has been very forthcoming with handling this and as far as I can tell Biden has not attempted to sell or give these documents away.\nTrump, was president for 4 miserable years, took these files and actively tried to hold onto them. Only turning some over and not everything, and even worse tries to downplay it and even look for loopholes to get out of it or generate conspiracy theories. Whether Trump intended to sell these documents or give them away is unknown but possible."
] |
>
No former presidents are sweating anything, because they know good and god damn well that in this country, we don't punish people in positions of power. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them.",
">\n\nThe difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.\nThere is a difference between being a supporter and a follower.",
">\n\n\nThis isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong\n\nWhere were you in the last threads?\n\nYeah former journalist here: this story reeks of ...something. NBC News Exclusive with a one source on background so deep there's no attributable information including an overview of possible job title? No additional information is known by this single source, as evidenced by this:\n\nThe classification level, number and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear. It also was not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the Obama administration is complete.\n\nWhen you get info like this, you want it backed up by at least one other source, even if they also remain anonymous. It's most likely that what's being reported is true and that's why they're running with it but my post-Judith Miller journalism education means my spidey sense is tingling on this one. Call it racing for a scoop, call it inadequate sourcing, I just hope they can back this one up better than they did in their public reporting. If this turns out to be inaccurate it's unfathomably bad\n\n700 upvotes.\n--\n\n\nSeriously this sounds fishy as fuck.\n\nHow would cnn know what was in the files when bidens people didn’t open them. How would cnn know how many documents were there?\nThis reeks of…. Something. \n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nIn unrelated news, CNN was bought by a conservative billionaire seeking to turn the network into Fox 2.0 a while back\n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nOh I know. That’s what I mean.\nHow do they have this information when no one on bidens team knows this stuff.\n\n40 upvotes\n--\n\nHey, look, a media outlet owned by a gigantic conglomerate carrying water for Republican bullshit! How curious!\nI mean it could also be simple clickbaiting too, because, you know, journalistic standards can always be degraded further, I guess. Either way, something definitely smells with this one. Maybe there will be better corroboration elsewhere.\n\n80 upvotes\n--\nOkay, bad or fake news media accusations aside, what's way more fun are the conspiracy theories!!\n--\n\nOdd that they're popping up now, given the circumstances.\nEven odder how they all seem to only deal directly with Biden and nothing else.\nEven odder when you consider a large part of the secret service decided to delete their own texts when ordered to produce them before the January 6th committee and are likely still loyal to the man who attempted a coup and remain so suspect that the current president has indicated multiple times that he doesn't trust them.\nJust odd.\n\n45 upvotes, over 10 replies, only one of them (at the very bottom) calling them out for the qanon crap. Planted by the Secret Service, Biden would never do that!!!",
">\n\nYeah I'm relieved by how sane this thread is compared to that last one. \nTurns out \"THE EVIL LYING MSM\" is a nonpartisan position I guess :/",
">\n\nIt blows republicans minds that democrats want to see this investigated. So outside their character to investigate a non-enemy, seems crazy to them. Kind of reminds me of when Desantis flew those migrants to Martha’s Vineyard thinking liberals would send them packing. Blew their minds when they were welcomed with open arms.",
">\n\nThe key differences here though, Biden is cooperating with investigators. He isn't trying to cover it up, he isn't trying to obstruct the process, he isn't trying to retroactively declassify with his mind, and he isn't going on the road to call this a hoax or play down what was discovered.\nThat being said, this was from when he was VP and the first documents were found in 2017 as far as I can see. They discovered more recently and of course Biden has been very forthcoming with handling this and as far as I can tell Biden has not attempted to sell or give these documents away.\nTrump, was president for 4 miserable years, took these files and actively tried to hold onto them. Only turning some over and not everything, and even worse tries to downplay it and even look for loopholes to get out of it or generate conspiracy theories. Whether Trump intended to sell these documents or give them away is unknown but possible.",
">\n\nEvery former president sweating bullets and checking their armoires right now."
] |
>
I’ve never met a single Democrat that wasn’t in favor of accountability.
If President Biden committed a crime, I fully expect him to be investigated and punished for it.
Justice demands accountability. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them.",
">\n\nThe difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.\nThere is a difference between being a supporter and a follower.",
">\n\n\nThis isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong\n\nWhere were you in the last threads?\n\nYeah former journalist here: this story reeks of ...something. NBC News Exclusive with a one source on background so deep there's no attributable information including an overview of possible job title? No additional information is known by this single source, as evidenced by this:\n\nThe classification level, number and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear. It also was not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the Obama administration is complete.\n\nWhen you get info like this, you want it backed up by at least one other source, even if they also remain anonymous. It's most likely that what's being reported is true and that's why they're running with it but my post-Judith Miller journalism education means my spidey sense is tingling on this one. Call it racing for a scoop, call it inadequate sourcing, I just hope they can back this one up better than they did in their public reporting. If this turns out to be inaccurate it's unfathomably bad\n\n700 upvotes.\n--\n\n\nSeriously this sounds fishy as fuck.\n\nHow would cnn know what was in the files when bidens people didn’t open them. How would cnn know how many documents were there?\nThis reeks of…. Something. \n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nIn unrelated news, CNN was bought by a conservative billionaire seeking to turn the network into Fox 2.0 a while back\n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nOh I know. That’s what I mean.\nHow do they have this information when no one on bidens team knows this stuff.\n\n40 upvotes\n--\n\nHey, look, a media outlet owned by a gigantic conglomerate carrying water for Republican bullshit! How curious!\nI mean it could also be simple clickbaiting too, because, you know, journalistic standards can always be degraded further, I guess. Either way, something definitely smells with this one. Maybe there will be better corroboration elsewhere.\n\n80 upvotes\n--\nOkay, bad or fake news media accusations aside, what's way more fun are the conspiracy theories!!\n--\n\nOdd that they're popping up now, given the circumstances.\nEven odder how they all seem to only deal directly with Biden and nothing else.\nEven odder when you consider a large part of the secret service decided to delete their own texts when ordered to produce them before the January 6th committee and are likely still loyal to the man who attempted a coup and remain so suspect that the current president has indicated multiple times that he doesn't trust them.\nJust odd.\n\n45 upvotes, over 10 replies, only one of them (at the very bottom) calling them out for the qanon crap. Planted by the Secret Service, Biden would never do that!!!",
">\n\nYeah I'm relieved by how sane this thread is compared to that last one. \nTurns out \"THE EVIL LYING MSM\" is a nonpartisan position I guess :/",
">\n\nIt blows republicans minds that democrats want to see this investigated. So outside their character to investigate a non-enemy, seems crazy to them. Kind of reminds me of when Desantis flew those migrants to Martha’s Vineyard thinking liberals would send them packing. Blew their minds when they were welcomed with open arms.",
">\n\nThe key differences here though, Biden is cooperating with investigators. He isn't trying to cover it up, he isn't trying to obstruct the process, he isn't trying to retroactively declassify with his mind, and he isn't going on the road to call this a hoax or play down what was discovered.\nThat being said, this was from when he was VP and the first documents were found in 2017 as far as I can see. They discovered more recently and of course Biden has been very forthcoming with handling this and as far as I can tell Biden has not attempted to sell or give these documents away.\nTrump, was president for 4 miserable years, took these files and actively tried to hold onto them. Only turning some over and not everything, and even worse tries to downplay it and even look for loopholes to get out of it or generate conspiracy theories. Whether Trump intended to sell these documents or give them away is unknown but possible.",
">\n\nEvery former president sweating bullets and checking their armoires right now.",
">\n\nNo former presidents are sweating anything, because they know good and god damn well that in this country, we don't punish people in positions of power."
] |
>
Legal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them. | [
"1 : investigate .\n2 : charge if investigation shows evidence of wrong doing .\n3 : prosecute in court to decide if guilty or innocent of wrong doing .\n4 : if found guilty then impose maximum sentencing .\n5 : For the Republicans now frothing at the mouth in excitement if youre not calling for excactly the same for Trump youre hypocrites and traitors to your country .\nEDIT : Cheers for the awards you lovely people : )",
">\n\nI'm fully comfortable with an investigation. And that investigation charging anyone found to have committed a crime. And anyone found guilty being punished in accordance with the law.\nI know of nobody on the left who thinks this shouldn't be the case. Zero. Not a single serious person on the left advocates not this.\nPlenty believe or think that this and Trump's issue with classified dox aren't the same thing--they they involve very different allowances, compliances, precedents, and behaviors. And have confidence in an investigation showing that. But, different or not, nobody on the left has breathed a word that Biden or any of his people are sacred or beyond the law.\nBoth sides are in no way the same.\nThey demonstrate it with every scandal and issue.",
">\n\nExactly. Things you will (hopefully) not hear:\n1) Obama declassified them with his mind.\n2) They were planted by the FBI.\n3) It's okay because someone else did it once too.\n4) This is being done to frame or embarrass Biden.\nIf Biden broke laws, he should face the consequences. If there may be charges but the Justice Department feels like they need to wait until he's out of office, then that's what should happen. Charges or not, if this becomes too big of a political liability, then Biden shouldn't seek reelection in 2024.",
">\n\nI 100% agree that there ought to be a reasonable investigation into this but I do have to wonder if any of this matters at all given that Biden is currently the president and therefore has not only the right to have classified information but also the ability to declassify that information.\nNot trying to make excuses for the oversight (or lack thereof) of classified documents, but it seems to me as though this requires an investigation into how classified documents are handled during and after individuals have been given such status and after said status has lapsed.\nLet's be perfectly honest, if they had taken different actions on the first set of documents, we likely wouldn't even know about this because there was nobody searching for them.\nHad Biden and his lawyers actually been seriously corrupt, they could easily have disposed of them in a fireplace or down a toilet and no one would know the better.\nThe fact that they brought this directly to the attention of the proper authorities is at least proof that they do have respect for the rule of law and are willing to except the consequences, even if it is going to be used to make political hay while the sun shines.",
">\n\nThe problem is that these documents were reportedly in his possession from the Obama presidency. So there were 4 years where he did not have that access.",
">\n\nThat's not true. Biden maintained a security clearance during his time out of office. He still had clearance for these documents.\nThe still relevant questions here are: 1. Were the documents properly handled given their classification level? (probably not). 2. What are the relevant laws to improper handling of classified documents. 3. These are records under the PRA and should have been turned over to NARA. (While that is a law there are no legal consequences to breaking it).",
">\n\nSo what happens if they find out it was handled inappropriately? What happens then?\nWill he get impeached as he is a sitting president? What about trump? Shouldn’t he also have the same punishment as Biden or does it depend on the documents that were mishandled?\nEdit: not sure why I am being downvoted for asking a question. Both parties should be investigated and handled appropriately per the law.",
">\n\nTrump did not have a security clearance when he removed the documents. Also Trump then with held the documents once they were discovered. It's one thing to say oh my bad, I have your property, here you can have it back. It's something else entirely when you discover you have someone else's property and refuse to give it back. We call that theft and there are much larger consequences to those types of actions.\nTo answer your first question though, what should happen is a full investigation of both Biden and Trump. And if any laws are found to be broken by either of them, then they should be charged for those and a trial conducted to examine the evidence and determine guilt. If Biden broke the law then yes, he should face the consequences of that under the law. Same goes for Trump.\nWe are still a nation of laws, however unfair they may be, and the laws should be applied equally to all citizens of this country. No one is above them.",
">\n\nI noted this the other day, there needs to be an investigation into how the Obama white house handled classified docs since we have two cases of documents not being where they should be. The GOP isn't qualified to do that investigation because they want a witch hunt. NARA handing this to the doj and them giving it to a special prosecuter from the Trump days is a reasonable course of action.",
">\n\nI don’t know a lot about US politics, but I thought Trump passed new laws requiring careful handling of classified documents. If this is right then only the classified docs held by Trump and Biden require investigation, but not Obama. \nIf I’m wrong then I’d appreciate someone setting me straight.",
">\n\nThis should be a wake up call to our Government. They need to enforce that document receipts be written when a secured document is checked out, the receipts held securely, the receipts audited regularly, and the receipts closed out upon return of the material. You make a copy - you have to sign a receipt so the copy is tracked. \nAny President (or VP), who leaves office and wants to take documents with them, needs to have someone review all documentation scheduled to be taken with them. Someone (a lawyer) needs to be in charge of this review and sign a statement indicating there are no secured documents in the haul away items.\nPeriod. This is not really all that difficult to do and ensure. What is apparent is the loose way documentation is being handled at the highest levels of our Government.",
">\n\nThey just have to handle it the same way that literally everybody else with a clearance is required to...",
">\n\nThis. Apparently it's not just the DOJ that has two sets of rules...",
">\n\nPeople with clearances are constantly given refresher training and reminders about how to treat classified info, but then they see on the news over and over that politicians break these rules and get no punishment.\n\"Rules for thee but not for me\" should be on the fucking dollar bill at this point.",
">\n\nYes, in my experience with classified documents it was never an option to take them home, nor even to remove them from the secure facility where they were located, stored in a safe whenever not checked out.",
">\n\nThe GOP in a nutshell:\nDemocrat President fully cooperates with law enforcement, is forthcoming, helping the investigation and taking full responsibility. GOP calls him a criminal.\nRepublican President lies to law enforcement, hides evidence, hires a lawyer, calls investigators names, blames the FBI, makes false claims and refuses to take any responsibility…. GOP calls him their hero.",
">\n\nLegal experts agree that Trump was unlikely to see any legal trouble until he intentionally withheld subpoenaed documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve them.",
">\n\nIt’s the obstruction that really sets the two apart. We would have never known about it if he had done the right thing within the year and a half up until the FBI showed up to his retirement home with a warrant.",
">\n\nLet me preface this by saying: I don’t care if he’s investigated and prosecuted for this. At all. Hell, trump and him can be roommates for all I care.\nbut\nThis is absolutely not the same thing as what trump did and anyone saying the two are equivalent is doing so in bad faith or doesn’t understand what they’re talking about\nTrump intentionally took thousands of documents, hid the fact he took them, miscatagorized them, refused to turn them over, hoarded some that he hadn’t turned over to pretend he did, and the documents he took had handwriting all over them and many were above top secret. Trump obviously showed that he did this intentionally and knowingly, and when confronted, deceitfully concealed them and attempted to retain them.\nBidens own staff turned over these documents, immediately after discovering them without attempt to conceal them or hide this from the media. It’s a mistake, a big mistake, a mistake big enough to put any normal citizen in jail, and one that I feel some sort of punishment would be justified. - but it is not the same as intentionally taking documents and concealing them from authorities. If this was a mistake and not intentional, it is being handled correctly now, and that counts for something.",
">\n\nNo, a normal citizen wouldn't be in jail for this. Not based on that we know at this point.\nAlso remember that Trump has even more documents he's hiding. They just got part of the mar a Lago stash.",
">\n\nA normal person having SCI documents in their garage or closet would absolutely face massive co sequences, up to and including jail time.",
">\n\nGiven that his lawyers immediately turned them over to NARA when they were never identified as missing in the first place, intent goes a long way. The whole reason NARA gave him so much leeway is because this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice, except trump is the only one who refused he had them, gave them some, hid the others in his desk he uses daily, and when he got raided claimed he personally owned them, and even now there are still documents unaccounted for. There's also no indication the Biden documents are SCI as of yet",
">\n\n\nbecause this has more than likely happened under every administration once or twice\n\nHow I see it. Tracking every piece of paper printer to shredder a few have to end up in a cabinet somewhere. So far Biden stuff seems \"lock it up, I'll read it later (forgets)\".",
">\n\nThis is exactly how i see it, or an aid put it in the safe and forgot to remove it, and given that these documents were never identified as missing or requested, im inclined to be kind in how i read this",
">\n\nOn the flip side, this completely demolishes the right's argument that Trump is being unfairly targeted. Really takes the wind from those sails.",
">\n\nI’m sorry to break this to you, but republicans’ sails are filled by rage and team identity, and there is plenty of that to go around.",
">\n\nI'm sure that when all the facts are known, there will be at least a dozen significant details that differentiate this, both as a legal matter and a practical matter, from what Trump did. But Americans and the American media aren't capable of nuance, so this will be Trump's 1000th Get Out of Jail Free card. Dude definitely sold his soul to the devil decades ago to be this charmed. I'm okay with it, though, because --justice aside -- the best case scenario for the U.S. is for Trump to remain alive and free to burn down the GOP when he doesn't get the nomination for 2024.",
">\n\nThere is obviously no equivalence to what Trump did, but you still have to be asking yourself \"WTF?\"\nDocuments in a locked filing closet at his old office was bad enough, but in his garage? Come on. Like it or not, Democrats have to be above reproach when it comes to stuff like this and the optics for this are beyond terrible.\nAnd it doesn't matter that it's nothing like what Trump did or that Biden and his team have been cooperating fully, it still should not have happened once, let alone multiple times.\nPlus I'd also like to know WTF no one knew these documents were missing? The archives knew Trump had withheld documents, so why didn't anyone know these were missing?",
">\n\nFor sure. When I heard this story, I literally shouted WTF! (but not abbreviated). This was followed, of course, by SMH. It's reaching comical levels now, with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.",
">\n\n\"with Biden commenting that the garage was secure because his Camaro was in there. Really??? I assume that The Onion writers are also yelling WTF! today.\"\nYeah, I couldn't believe he said that. He could have said that \"It's my residence and has always been protected by the Secret Service\" and that would still be crappy but at least not comical.",
">\n\nI can't believe we are even comparing the cost of a car to the potential costs of this kind of classified intelligence.",
">\n\nYep, it was an incredibly tone-deaf response.",
">\n\nWhat?!?!? No whiney excuses or pointing blame at the press, FBI or other party? So crazy.",
">\n\nI mean they didnt SWAT raid his house and we didnt get tin foil hat wearers live streaming from the gates. 1 out of 5 stars only because I cant give it 0.",
">\n\nIf the real story was the documents then the Trump story would have broken 6 months earlier when the documents were found instead of after he refused to return them.",
">\n\nThe difference between me and a Trump supporter is: if Biden did anything illegal, I want him to be held accountable. Period. This isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong.\nThere is a difference between being a supporter and a follower.",
">\n\n\nThis isn’t “fake news” just because Biden might have done something wrong\n\nWhere were you in the last threads?\n\nYeah former journalist here: this story reeks of ...something. NBC News Exclusive with a one source on background so deep there's no attributable information including an overview of possible job title? No additional information is known by this single source, as evidenced by this:\n\nThe classification level, number and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear. It also was not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the Obama administration is complete.\n\nWhen you get info like this, you want it backed up by at least one other source, even if they also remain anonymous. It's most likely that what's being reported is true and that's why they're running with it but my post-Judith Miller journalism education means my spidey sense is tingling on this one. Call it racing for a scoop, call it inadequate sourcing, I just hope they can back this one up better than they did in their public reporting. If this turns out to be inaccurate it's unfathomably bad\n\n700 upvotes.\n--\n\n\nSeriously this sounds fishy as fuck.\n\nHow would cnn know what was in the files when bidens people didn’t open them. How would cnn know how many documents were there?\nThis reeks of…. Something. \n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nIn unrelated news, CNN was bought by a conservative billionaire seeking to turn the network into Fox 2.0 a while back\n\n140 upvotes\n--\n\nOh I know. That’s what I mean.\nHow do they have this information when no one on bidens team knows this stuff.\n\n40 upvotes\n--\n\nHey, look, a media outlet owned by a gigantic conglomerate carrying water for Republican bullshit! How curious!\nI mean it could also be simple clickbaiting too, because, you know, journalistic standards can always be degraded further, I guess. Either way, something definitely smells with this one. Maybe there will be better corroboration elsewhere.\n\n80 upvotes\n--\nOkay, bad or fake news media accusations aside, what's way more fun are the conspiracy theories!!\n--\n\nOdd that they're popping up now, given the circumstances.\nEven odder how they all seem to only deal directly with Biden and nothing else.\nEven odder when you consider a large part of the secret service decided to delete their own texts when ordered to produce them before the January 6th committee and are likely still loyal to the man who attempted a coup and remain so suspect that the current president has indicated multiple times that he doesn't trust them.\nJust odd.\n\n45 upvotes, over 10 replies, only one of them (at the very bottom) calling them out for the qanon crap. Planted by the Secret Service, Biden would never do that!!!",
">\n\nYeah I'm relieved by how sane this thread is compared to that last one. \nTurns out \"THE EVIL LYING MSM\" is a nonpartisan position I guess :/",
">\n\nIt blows republicans minds that democrats want to see this investigated. So outside their character to investigate a non-enemy, seems crazy to them. Kind of reminds me of when Desantis flew those migrants to Martha’s Vineyard thinking liberals would send them packing. Blew their minds when they were welcomed with open arms.",
">\n\nThe key differences here though, Biden is cooperating with investigators. He isn't trying to cover it up, he isn't trying to obstruct the process, he isn't trying to retroactively declassify with his mind, and he isn't going on the road to call this a hoax or play down what was discovered.\nThat being said, this was from when he was VP and the first documents were found in 2017 as far as I can see. They discovered more recently and of course Biden has been very forthcoming with handling this and as far as I can tell Biden has not attempted to sell or give these documents away.\nTrump, was president for 4 miserable years, took these files and actively tried to hold onto them. Only turning some over and not everything, and even worse tries to downplay it and even look for loopholes to get out of it or generate conspiracy theories. Whether Trump intended to sell these documents or give them away is unknown but possible.",
">\n\nEvery former president sweating bullets and checking their armoires right now.",
">\n\nNo former presidents are sweating anything, because they know good and god damn well that in this country, we don't punish people in positions of power.",
">\n\nI’ve never met a single Democrat that wasn’t in favor of accountability. \nIf President Biden committed a crime, I fully expect him to be investigated and punished for it. \nJustice demands accountability."
] |
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