Datasets:

---

innovation-hacking2

/

shitposting_dataset0

like 0

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life ." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money)." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly.", ">\n\nConsidering OP's premise is that teenagers shouldn't be encouraged to attend college due to exorbitant costs, I think we can safely assume they live in the US." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly.", ">\n\nConsidering OP's premise is that teenagers shouldn't be encouraged to attend college due to exorbitant costs, I think we can safely assume they live in the US.", ">\n\nFunny, bud. I am a full time college student but I do wish I had better understood what I was getting myself into so I could have considered other education options, taken my prereqs at community college, and generally just have been better educated in personal finance so that I would have had better direction" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly.", ">\n\nConsidering OP's premise is that teenagers shouldn't be encouraged to attend college due to exorbitant costs, I think we can safely assume they live in the US.", ">\n\nFunny, bud. I am a full time college student but I do wish I had better understood what I was getting myself into so I could have considered other education options, taken my prereqs at community college, and generally just have been better educated in personal finance so that I would have had better direction", ">\n\nWhat do you consider the downsides of you going to college?\nI didn't go to university (what we call college here) so I have done the alternative that you're suggesting and I'm interested in hearing your opinion" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly.", ">\n\nConsidering OP's premise is that teenagers shouldn't be encouraged to attend college due to exorbitant costs, I think we can safely assume they live in the US.", ">\n\nFunny, bud. I am a full time college student but I do wish I had better understood what I was getting myself into so I could have considered other education options, taken my prereqs at community college, and generally just have been better educated in personal finance so that I would have had better direction", ">\n\nWhat do you consider the downsides of you going to college?\nI didn't go to university (what we call college here) so I have done the alternative that you're suggesting and I'm interested in hearing your opinion", ">\n\nI’m going to post a longer response but I generally think 18 year old are not well equipped to make the most out of their college experience, which does not make it its money’s worth" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly.", ">\n\nConsidering OP's premise is that teenagers shouldn't be encouraged to attend college due to exorbitant costs, I think we can safely assume they live in the US.", ">\n\nFunny, bud. I am a full time college student but I do wish I had better understood what I was getting myself into so I could have considered other education options, taken my prereqs at community college, and generally just have been better educated in personal finance so that I would have had better direction", ">\n\nWhat do you consider the downsides of you going to college?\nI didn't go to university (what we call college here) so I have done the alternative that you're suggesting and I'm interested in hearing your opinion", ">\n\nI’m going to post a longer response but I generally think 18 year old are not well equipped to make the most out of their college experience, which does not make it its money’s worth", ">\n\nAn 18yo is a legal adult (I assume you're talking about the USA). They're denied access to a handful of vices, but otherwise have the full suite of legal rights and responsibilities of a 45yo. It seems weird to think that college or even student loans are more demanding or harder to understand than a full-time job and a mortgage.\nThe reason young people are encouraged to go to college is because it is generally a very good financial investment and offers a fairly gentle transition into adult life. It's a fairly low risk option with great potential upsides." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly.", ">\n\nConsidering OP's premise is that teenagers shouldn't be encouraged to attend college due to exorbitant costs, I think we can safely assume they live in the US.", ">\n\nFunny, bud. I am a full time college student but I do wish I had better understood what I was getting myself into so I could have considered other education options, taken my prereqs at community college, and generally just have been better educated in personal finance so that I would have had better direction", ">\n\nWhat do you consider the downsides of you going to college?\nI didn't go to university (what we call college here) so I have done the alternative that you're suggesting and I'm interested in hearing your opinion", ">\n\nI’m going to post a longer response but I generally think 18 year old are not well equipped to make the most out of their college experience, which does not make it its money’s worth", ">\n\nAn 18yo is a legal adult (I assume you're talking about the USA). They're denied access to a handful of vices, but otherwise have the full suite of legal rights and responsibilities of a 45yo. It seems weird to think that college or even student loans are more demanding or harder to understand than a full-time job and a mortgage.\nThe reason young people are encouraged to go to college is because it is generally a very good financial investment and offers a fairly gentle transition into adult life. It's a fairly low risk option with great potential upsides.", ">\n\nr/USdefaultism ?" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly.", ">\n\nConsidering OP's premise is that teenagers shouldn't be encouraged to attend college due to exorbitant costs, I think we can safely assume they live in the US.", ">\n\nFunny, bud. I am a full time college student but I do wish I had better understood what I was getting myself into so I could have considered other education options, taken my prereqs at community college, and generally just have been better educated in personal finance so that I would have had better direction", ">\n\nWhat do you consider the downsides of you going to college?\nI didn't go to university (what we call college here) so I have done the alternative that you're suggesting and I'm interested in hearing your opinion", ">\n\nI’m going to post a longer response but I generally think 18 year old are not well equipped to make the most out of their college experience, which does not make it its money’s worth", ">\n\nAn 18yo is a legal adult (I assume you're talking about the USA). They're denied access to a handful of vices, but otherwise have the full suite of legal rights and responsibilities of a 45yo. It seems weird to think that college or even student loans are more demanding or harder to understand than a full-time job and a mortgage.\nThe reason young people are encouraged to go to college is because it is generally a very good financial investment and offers a fairly gentle transition into adult life. It's a fairly low risk option with great potential upsides.", ">\n\nr/USdefaultism ?", ">\n\n\nlives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nJust fix this problem. It doesn't seem like a smart idea of individuals to profit off the improved education of your population." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially.", ">\n\nCruel and predatory? Feels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\nAlso your issue doesn't seem to be with studying, but with getting tuition. Maybe you should argue for free public education instead.", ">\n\n\nFeels like you just chose 2 random negative words because you didn't want to say 'bad' twice.\n\nThat's the mark of an educated man.", ">\n\nThat's the mark of someone wanna trigger emotional response form reader. It's a\nstretch to use those words in this post", ">\n\n\nSo where is this logic when it applies to college?? We actively encourage kids to place themselves into binding contracts where they may have to spend a decent chunk (or the rest) of their lives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nNope. They got ONE loan for ONE semester. Attended classes for 4 months while talking to teachers and peers. And then decided that it still made sense and took out ANOTHER loan for another semester. And so on…. a lot more times. At any point they could realize it was a mistake, if they decided that, and leave.\nAnd the average debt at graduation, is $29K.", ">\n\nFair.", ">\n\n\nbarely able to vote\n\nYou're either old enough or not. And at 18, you can vote. As a matter of fact, booze, cigarettes and running for President of the US are pretty much the only things you can't do. You are considered an adult in almost every other way. Stop infantilizing 18 year olds and treating them all like incompetent idiots.", ">\n\nIdk I was a pretty incompetent idiot (nice word choice) at 18", ">\n\nYou shouldn't generalize others from self.", ">\n\nYou definitely shouldn't...but 18 year olds are generally morons. Not their fault, but generally true.", ">\n\nI was a \"non-traditional\" student, so you're preaching to the choir. But I can think of a few reasons why social pressure to go straight to college makes sense:\n\nKeep the momentum going! It's very hard to go to the \"real world\" and then back to school. You get caught up in life: rent, bills, freedom, etc. Not everyone has the luxury of staying with their parents, and the USA does not have the social support networks in place to enable gap-year folks like some other countries.\nReturn on investment! Kickstarting your career early can provide some crazy high return on investment. Both literally, in the form of early investing in stocks, as well as more figuratively in the form of higher career trajectory and fluidity.\nSocietal impact! On a macro scale, what we want is productive and contributing members of society. Pushing folks into school might not be the best for an individual, but it's very likely best for society as a whole.\n\nAnd I can think of a direct counterpoint to your assertion, as well. It's no more predatory than the fact that an 18 year old can open a credit card, sign a mortgage, get married, take out a car loan, sign up for life insurance, etc. All those things can be tools, and can also be predatory when abused by assholes looking to profit. And the people getting preyed on really run the whole gamut of society - there are 50 year olds who are signing objectively bad loans, racking up tens of thousands in credit card debt and signing mortgages way outside their means. So unfortunately I don't think this particular industry is any worse than all the others in which an individual can shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking critically about their choices.", ">\n\nFortunately American colleges treat students like children in lots of ways, from making sure they are housed to keeping attendance in class. So that more or less works out OK.", ">\n\nHow does predatory fit in here? Colleges do advertise, but the people doing most of the advocating don't stand to gain anything from the bad advice.\nIs it the government providing loans that's predatory? Leaving aside someone that's politically left having to state the government is predatory; I assume just like with private companies, the terms of the loan are straight forward; They tell you exactly what the loan will cost if you only make minimum payments. This actually seems less predatory than companies selling products where they omit problems or important context with the product (eg - iRobot doesn't clearly tell you the various sensor issues their vacuums have).\nSo who is the predator here?", ">\n\nI pressured both my kids NOT to straight after school. They ignored me and went anyway.", ">\n\nAs opposed to what? Travel the world? Sit around playing FFXI? “Cultivate a hobby”?\nWith whose money? Living where? Will your parents just pay for you to travel the world for the “experience”? Will they just let you live with them while you get your Mythic Weapon to ilvl 119? The answer is probably no. Paying either part of or all your tuition is one more kindness your parents are doing for you, you can’t expect them to pay for you to lounge around. Especially American families, where it’s all about one self rather than the family unit. You don’t know how many threads I’ve read where people tell others to just ditch their parents and let them “rot in a nursing home”. Forget that they spent 18+ years of their life taking care of you. \nIf your answer is “I’ll work”, then what work? Delivering pizza? Because you’ll be hard pressed to find a good job at 18 with no degree. \nTherefore, what you’re suggesting is simply infeasible for most people.", ">\n\nThe problem here is not sending young adults to college. That's a good idea because both their school knowledge and learning methods are still there.\nThe problem is a system where going to college costs 300k.", ">\n\nBut it doesn’t. It would only cost that if you paid nothing, went to the most-expensive private school you could find, and did it all with debt while also funding your living expenses with debt too.\nThe average debt at graduation is only $29K. So, clearly, few have that type of debt. Certainly vanishingly-few who are getting bachelors degrees. Most people who get into six-figure debt from school end up lawyers and physicians.", ">\n\nOP: Going to college is not close to being cruel and predatory. Setting up someone for failure is.\nBeing around an scholastic environment with people who are seeking to improve their lives and education is legitimately the opposite of what you have said. \nGuess what else you can take at college. Trade school programs, certifications, and the degree to ensure your knowledge and success. \nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to a Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck. You just have to be educated and able to do the job.\nGuess what? Humans need to learn and need to face resistance in the mind and body to improve and strengthen. Heavy weight and resistance will force the body to build muscle or strength. Learning will force the mind to expand it's capabilities.\nA young person, especially someone around 18 is vulnerable to negative influence. They really should be around positive people and a positive environment. There are many vices that will ruin a life, and trust me on this. The worst influencers are seriously not trying to go to college and improve their life.", ">\n\n\nMost people can even get financial aid for help! You don't need to go to an Ivy league school. Now adays most employers don't give a fuck.\n\nCorrection: nobody gives a fuck. Other than pretentious dummies or people whose goal was to skate through life on the “good old boy’s network” of grads from their alma mater.", ">\n\nAlot of people in this thread are campaigning hard for thr benefits of college. And I 100% agree, the stats don't lie. But it's more nuanced than that. As an elementary school kid I always heard from my teachers \"you need to go to college to be successful\" and that's not inherently true. What is not often talked about is choice of major, which imo is an even more important choice than choosing whether to go to college or not. \nAlot of 18 year Olds don't know what they want to do, and I saw many MANY people get degrees in stuff that hasn't helped them at all. Or change degrees after wasting alot of time and money on their first degree choice. What I'm trying to say is that engineering degree and a theater degree are 2 different things. I could graduate with an art degree tomorrow and it's no guerentee I make 6 figures ever. Granted, I'm sure there are art majors making alot of money, but the job field isn't exactly as fruitful as other majors. \nEven things like teachers. My brother Is a teacher and my other brother with a trade job makes twice as much as him without needing a degree", ">\n\nA lot of people in this thread probably went to college.", ">\n\nI used to have the same thought about drinking and smoking, but what benefit does either have more than college?\nI don't think the problem is that they go to college, I think the problem is they go to college wanting a degree in something that they were told in high school would make them 6 figures starting salary. So they jump in for the money and never figure out what their passion is which leads to a college degree that becomes useless when they realize they can't get a job.", ">\n\nThe way I approached college was to start taking core/required classes (English, math, history, government, etc) while choosing electives that were subjects that looked interesting but I knew nothing/little about. Doing that helped me find the major I wanted. And, while I never worked in that field after graduating, it held me in good stead and I was successful in the field I ended up wanting to work in.", ">\n\nThat is a smart approach and often it seems college is almost set up for people to take that route. I think some just don't take the time to look into different electives to find what they enjoy.", ">\n\nIn 1969 when I first went to uni there was any government loans, the tuition was $200 a semester with no limitations on credit hours taken, then gov loans came in and tuitions sky rocketed and have continued to do so ever since along with restrictions on how many subjects you take. I agree this was a predatory act done intentionally so schools could make money, kind of a sideways attempt at government sponsored education.", ">\n\nI think trade schools don't get mentioned often enough as legit beginning on a decent career path.", ">\n\nMost kids see no glory in such blue-collar work, feel they’d have “settled” and be looked down upon, and also see four years where they can continue hanging out with their friends while not working, versus taking a full-time job and “getting started”. Not hard to imagine they prefer the easy “glory” path to the “get busy and become a taxpaying member of society” path.", ">\n\nBecause if they don't go immediately they likely will never go. \nWhich for many wouldn't be a bad thing.", ">\n\nIn many of Asian and European countries, college education is funded by the governments and is not as atrocious as here in the US. Arguably, continuing education whilst young has lots of benefits because it's well understood that learning declines as we age.", ">\n\nI sure wish I had more time to figure out what I wanted to do. Tuition is relatively cheap where I am and my parents paid for it - but I studied something I have no passion for, so my outlook is not great right now. I wish I had the funds to go back and get another degree but it would mean going in debt and being financially fucked for who knows how long. If I took a few extra years to work and have a better idea of what I wanted to study I probably would've made a better decision and been in a better place now? who knows", ">\n\nThis!!", ">\n\nSee if your school has a Co-op program. You work 6 months and go to school for 6 months.", ">\n\nThat’s smart", ">\n\nI propose your issue isn't with college itself, but the government and culture surrounding college.\nFor example, tuition for college was massively subsidized before Nixon made sweeping cuts to it, in order to silence political dissenters from colleges.\nCollege education does provide valuable skills. It's predatory nature comes from legalized price gouging of tuition and needed materials. On top of this, the government profits on the loans it gives out for school. Not only are you required to pay taxes for life to fund education, but you're required to pay extra in the form of student loans+interest.\nColleges are aware of this and do profit on it. The worst of it comes in the form of politicians profiting on these loans (by owning private lending businesses, voting to increase their wages using taxes, requiring military service to join without massive debt then profiting on military action).\nIt's not the college doing this. It is a design of a proto-fascist state attempting to squeeze all value out of its lower classes. \nYou are becoming more aware of it and that's good.", ">\n\nPretty much an American thing. Very common for kids to take a year or two off elsewhere. Do what you wanna do and find the person you want to be.", ">\n\nI'd have to do research, but the only difference I'd make is to say either, \"It has become cruel and predatory,\" or, \"It has always been cruel and predatory.\" Tuition has soared, and predatory loans have replaced grants for poor students, but I'm skeptical there was ever a time college delivered all it promised. I think poor people saw college as a thing rich people did, so they thought if they did it they could get rich too, or at least less poor, but when you graduate you find the rich kids were just legitimizing a position that was always waiting for them, and you're still gonna have to strive and struggle.", ">\n\nDefinitely the latter", ">\n\n300k in loans if that 18 year old gets a PHD.\nMost bachelors are hella affordable. I paid for mine by working as a chinese food delivery driver part time, class of 2016.", ">\n\nI agree when it comes to the loans, total garbage.", ">\n\nParticularly when those 18 year olds are having to go into the kind of debt people who are buying houses go into. It’s not a reasonable expectation", ">\n\nI believe the pressure is actually a mix of permanent \"branding\" of a concept and a false illusion to reality.\n\"Going to college will get you a better paying job\"\nI know many and I'm sure many of you know folks who have these fancy papers going \"i r koolage stewdent\" and the person is working some crap job/temp till they find something that lets them use said piece of paper.\nA mix of schools and businesses (both work and loan company's) have either purposely or unpurposely set a form of gate keeping for \"better jobs\" and the only way to do said learning is to pay X$. Don't got the money? here sign this paper work putting you into heavy if not life long debt to learn this thing. No no ignore folks who have the degrees who even 10/20/30 years later are still paying it off cause the terms are not fair or in your favor. But you don't got a choice in lenders short of government aid but you better be poor or getting lots of scholarships. \nIt is beyond predatory and the fact the government is currently going \"these debts have cause decades of harm\" is proof they are really fucking stupid. Sadly the folks fighting it so hard is another unrelated topic. \nTo end this tho I share the same view on kids/\"new\" adults are forced into a position they shouldn't be due to a social structure that has proven detrimental for not just the individual but to the country as a whole.", ">\n\nI think you're conflating the decision of college with the decision of taking out student loans.\nI agree that an 18 year old should not be able to take out so much in student loans for a degree that everyone knew at the time wouldn't pay for itself. But I disagree that college is inappropriate for 18 year olds. 18 is a formative time in a person's life and college can be a good way to expose a person to many different perspectives and experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience.", ">\n\nThe problem isn't getting an education. The problem is;\n\nbeing convinced to go to overpriced universities which won't help you in the long run. Don't go somewhere for 100k to get a degree to be a high-school teacher\nBeing convinced to go after careers that won't make you money. Ive lost count of the number of friends who got degrees that can't be easily monetized and then they have to go back for more schooling.", ">\n\nNo. But there are different paths to success in college. From Community College, part time schedule, online, to full class load on campus. Parents and teens should make an honest assessment of what they can handle at 18. (Even a gap year)", ">\n\nNo one forced me to go to college. Went in very early 2000s.\n\nIt was the best option I had at the time, after working moderately hard in high school. Mostly, grant money paid for classes at a pretty good state university. I only ended up owing a little under 5k and that’s primarily because I had a few majors.\n\nThe other options were the military, trade school, or probably a minimum wage, none of those options were appealing to me, besides I could still do those things and have a 4 year degree. \nBut, I would’ve been terrified with those options only because of no fall back.\nI could’ve opened a business, but I can do that and did that while going to school. \nI’m also in a state where you can get a full ride with a 3.0. I did have a chance to go to a couple of higher end universities, but I know it could put my family and I in a tight situation. \nI think I actually took much more money than what I owed. And, actually loved college. Everyone always talks about their fondness of grade school. Elementary was ok, hated middle school and the first part of high school. It was awful \nWhat I will say about college- if you’re a terrible student or hated school, then you probably shouldn’t go. It only guarantees a job for fields that require extensive training and knowledge of a specific fields. Though, you have an opportunity to make your path to jobs or careers in college, while being there or taking proper steps for the future. \nThere’s your career services, electives, seminars, company recruitment, program recruitment, career development, etc. Some of the programs are so evil they pay your way to school. Oftemtimes, if you do well in college and have a wealth knowledge with impactful majors. You pretty much will have your pick of jobs.", ">\n\nIf student loans/debt wasn't a factor, would you still believe that \"it is cruel and predatory that we as a society pressure 18 year olds to go straight to college after high school\"?", ">\n\nNo not at all. I still don’t like that there is a stigma around those who do not go to college but I think the costs are nonsensical", ">\n\nThen it sounds like you don't actually agree with your own title to begin with? I don't know if they let you edit titles, but it might be good to put an amended title at the top of your main post that more directly opposes predatory loans and debt. And I can't disagree with you on that part. If I were 18 and wanted to take out a $100k loan to start an underwater basket weaving company I would get laughed out of the bank, and rightfully so. I don't have the credit to make such a poor decision with someone else' money. But if I take out $100k to get an underwater basket weaving degree, they'll happily screw me over for life.", ">\n\nI agree with lots of your point, so I’m going to challenge the idea that encouraging education itself is predatory.\n40 years ago, a person could put themselves through an undergraduate degree with a part time job, incurring minimal debt and paying it off quickly afterwards. Even if they never used that degree, they grew, learned things, and weren’t in decades of debt for it. \nThen policies changed around student loan debt and the cost of secondary education skyrocketed. Someone else who’s more educated in the subject can better speak on the nuances of why this occurred, but it fundamentally changed the landscape so that schools jacked up prices to the insane cost we see today. \nThis in my opinion is the part that’s predatory - folks who took advantage of the growing demand for secondary education. An educated society benefits everyone in it, and encouraging 18 year olds to broaden their minds and learn things while their brains are young and plastic is not inherently a bad thing. The predatory part is that we allowed some folks to stand in the way of education because they needed to make loads of money off of it. It didn’t start out that way.", ">\n\nPredatory 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nEver heard of predatory loans?", ">\n\nYes, but until today I had never heard of predatory higher education opportunities 🤣🤣🤣", ">\n\nThe loans are what is predatory, haha", ">\n\nIf you are 18 you are still in a study habit from school. Putting a gap year or two, three in between will wash that away and make it more difficult to start studying.\nLearning is easier when you're young, so it makes sense to do it as young as possible.\nHigher education is by all means a great time, where you constantly expand your worldview, knowledge, and pool of acquaintances. At the same time higher education offers plenty of opportunity for extracurricular activities, much more than a job would. I see no reason why getting a boring entry level job would be preferable.", ">\n\nI 100% am b3hind as many people going to college as they can. I believe it is more than just an education. However, 18 is a TERRIBLE time to go. After high school, most people needs a few years to gain a little real world experience and let their brain further developed. You should have experience with alcohol BEFORE college not during. \nYou shouldn't get married before 25 and you shouldn't go to college before 25.", ">\n\nIn my country kids considered fully adult once they turn 18, they can drink, smoke and they have all their rights. However I'd still love to take a little break before college but my family won't let me.", ">\n\nI will say that college is a great idea if you have the means. I personally couldn’t afford it, even with $20k in scholarships and fafsa I couldn’t do it. Some people have to work full time to survive, some have to care for disabled/elderly family members or younger siblings, or might have other obligations. We tell high schoolers that college is the only option, but it’s not feasible for everyone and I think it’s important to present alternative options", ">\n\nI truly believe it depends on said child. Some kids just know. They know what they want and have no problem going after. The rest of us should definitely wait until our frontal lobe is developed. I had zero clue. Figured it out by 30 but it's too late for me right now. ADHD is my downfall personally and money.", ">\n\nWe as a society don't necessarily do that. I'm a teacher and when taught in America, I (and the other teachers at my school) often pushed techs school and learning a trade over college.", ">\n\nYeah, I think pre college level schools should have a system that allows for the students to explore what interests them more. How is a person supposed to know what they want to do for college when they've never truly been given an opportunity to explore their interests? It's purposely done so that colleges can make more money off the people who don't know what they want.", ">\n\nSo I agree with you in people putting off university till a little after HS, though I wouldn't use the word predatory, its more like a false promise. A bachelor's degree is worth next to nothing in the US now because people are treating it as a fail-safe for people. I've met kids who are dumb as rocks in college and professors just pass them then they get out into the real world and take they can't do the actual job they talked for, because well their dumb as rocks... So they just eventually keep losing their job and work at some fast food place with tons of school debt. In this scenario you are correct. However, I do think that some people will benefit from school right-away. Women for one, will find the best job that pays the most for them in an educated field. Now this is where I will get major backlash, I know. But also if you are coming from a HS that doesn't have super good educational system (ei low graduation level, or good overall GPA) then your probably won't do well in college. There are the exceptions to that right, but as a statistic, those kids aren't cut for college just yet. It's better for them to go out into the world and gain experience that way and find a field they are good at/passionate about then go back to school. They will then hopefully be more mentally ready for the hardships that come with higher education", ">\n\nI went my first year, parents paying, and I felt bad because I wasn't ready to settle down and study. So, I went to work. I ended up working in construction and made a very good paycheck for a 18 y/o. I did this for about 10 years, and was a forman/supervisor for a successful company when I went back to school. By this time, I knew what my interests were and I paid my own way. \nI changed my career and my state degree in my early 30s didn't keep me from making a decent, competitive paycheck. And the 10 years of experience managing teams in construction had very translatable skills. I just went from blue to white collar, so just had to watch my salty language. :)\nSo, no, I don't think society pressure was enough to keep me from doing what I wanted. My path was not typical, and I'm doing just fine. (my wife may argue that last point.)", ">\n\nI mean it took me until age 24 to realize I was living my whole life wrong & I still don’t know what I wanna do with my life but I guess everybody is different & everybody develops & learns about themselves in a different time frame but I’d say an 18 year old doesn’t actually know what they want to do for the rest of their life", ">\n\nIt can be predatory. It can also be extremely liberating to be done with school at 22-25 years old. Working full time while going to school is an arduous prospect. Btw I believe slacking off for 2-3 years not accomplishing anything by age 21 is crippling to one’s chances of success.", ">\n\nAbsolutely. I struggled a lot between 18-20 but I know that if I were taking that time while I’m school I likely would have failed out and wasted a ton of money", ">\n\nYup. It was culture for me. I went even though I had ZERO business doing so . If I would of taken a year or two and worked a real job. It would of taught me so much . Not only to respect what an education can give you. But also what I want to do with my life . Instead I went to college and just got swept away with life .", ">\n\nNope, it is not the \"pushing\" that is ridiculous/predatory/cruel, but the situation in the USA.\nIn Europe, it just feels like a secondary high-school so people don't feel \"pushed\". Heck, I am glad I started uni at 19 (yes, where I am we do HS until 19) and have not waited. I knew what I wanted since a long time ago and so do most people. And it is cheap. Everything is cheap. The only difference is that you are no longer with the parents. That's all.\nSo again, consider not the \"push\" being wrong, but what the conditions are. Your argument should be against the status of your uni system, not against students starting uni at 18.", ">\n\nYes, but given the status of the uni system, I think people should take more time before rushing into college to make sure they don’t take on a huge financial burden they might not be ready/prepared for", ">\n\nOnce again, in \"normal\" countries it's not that much of an investment. And also, it is parents that mainly pay for the cheap tuition and the living costs.\nMy point is that you should be angry at the fact that the uni system is not \"normal\" where you live, instead that young people are \"pushed\" into learning when they are in their mental prime.", ">\n\nI am not angry, nor am I angry at students going to college. I think given the US college system is bad, we should not push kids into school without them understanding the financial implications of their decision", ">\n\nI've been trying to tell this very thing to anyone that'll listen. Unless you know exactly what you want to do at the ripe old age of 18 and are prepared to put yourself in debt for years to come, don't go to college. Get a job and get some good life skills first. Learn how to be an adult and make adult decisions before you waste your money on an education that you probably won't even use. When you've figured out what is important to you and what you think you might want to do for a living, THEN go and get a degree.", ">\n\nHaha in this economy you need to be done with school by 12 so you can start saving to buy a house at 40. Goals", ">\n\nHi, you raised a lot of points, and I shall try to address as many as possible. You say that 18 yo cannot smoke. That is false in every state as well as every other country where smoking is not banned completely. As to drinking, I agree that it is hypocrisy to bestow upon 18 yo all the responsibilities of adulthood but withhold one of the privileges. I am unsure what the phrase \"barely able to vote\" means, you either can or you cannot.\nMoving on to your main thesis, which seems to me to be this: \"Uni saddles students with debt for many years to come, therefore 18 uo who are immature should not be able to make such decisions.\" In response to that I would firstly ask you to look at the alternatives. It is widely believed that the age of mental maturity is around 25. Would you have them work unqualified minimum-wage jobs for 7 years, and only afterwards go to Uni? Or would you expect parents to support them for an additional 7 years? Either way, they would be throwing away close to a decade of their lives, for the chance of making a better choice. It seems far worse than getting student loans, as they would only start working in their chosen profession at the age of 29/31, when all those who went to uni at 18 will have moved up the corporate ladder and made a significant dent in their student loans. Furthermore, it would be inconsistent to just restrict 18 yo from uni access, as you either treat them as adults or as children, therefore to be logically consistent you would need to restrict their access to driving licences, guns and voting, as all three can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.\nI think that the real solution to the problem is to stop giving out student loans to unprofitable degrees. Engineers, like myself, lawyers and doctors generally have far, far fewer problems with student loans than those studying history, literature or psychology. Therefore, to protect students from loans they will be unable to pay back, unprofitable degrees should operate on a pay-for-it-upfront model.", ">\n\nThey used to go off to war or to work on coal mines so college is a walk on the park.", ">\n\nI know this is buried, but if you see this, you need to understand that the lack of \"financial understanding\" that you're seeing here isn't necessarily your fault, nor any teenager's fault. It's your parent's duty and responsibility to guide you through these decisions. \nYou're feeling stressed that your father lost his job and his career might not be the same after this. That's a risk that your parents took on. As a father to a young teenager, my wife and I will take this responsibility on for her as well. We know the risks and we accept that responsibility. That's on us. We have put our name on the line for cars, homes, and most of all our children. \nI can make the same arguments that everyone else here has made, but I'll add that with a degree, you're only matched by 35% of the population. With a Masters degree, that turns into 13% of the population. You are dramatically decreasing your pool of peers with a degree, and you will see significantly less time without a job with a degree (on average).\nI'm a tradesman. My wife is a degreed worker. I made more money early in life and (as we are coming up on our 50th rotation around the sun) she is significantly out-earning me now. I expect to have a more difficult time finding work that pays well as I age as there's always someone who will do what I do for far less than I do it for. That means that I must continue my education to set myself apart from my peers who are young and hungry. It's more difficult to compete with a larger pool of people.", ">\n\nThe problem isn’t going into higher education at 18. In fact it’s easier to do that before you have a job and obligations.\nThe problem is saddling people with generational debt.\nEurope does not have that dilemma for instance.\nBut you do make a good point about trade schools.\nUnfortunately society as a whole sees the whole thing as « beneath them ». Trade school means you couldn’t hack it in normal school, so people don’t go (which is sometimes dumb, because those guys can make a lot of money).", ">\n\n\"The 'push' itself for college isn't cruel/predatory (even if there are loads of predatory practices on the financial side of things).\"\nWhat I mean by this is that the 'push' is generally caused by a swell of well-meaning advice: College was a great investment for lots of Boomers. Many who went straight to work (even many who did quite well for themselves) ended up with a bad back and wishing they had gone to college and gotten a desk job. Many who went straight to college felt like it opened a lot of doors early in their career that compounded well over the long run. On top of these anecdotes, there is plenty of government data out there showing earning projections for different educational-attainment levels that back up the anecdotes. All in all, when someone's experience was \"College worked out great for everyone I can think of!\" then \"I really think you should go to College!\" is usually well-intentioned advice given in-good-faith.\nThe fact that the financials around the post-secondary education industry became so vastly distorted compared to \"the good old days\" that blanket \"Go to college!\" advice becomes increasingly ill-advised is a tragedy but that doesn't make it malicious.", ">\n\nI don’t think the family members encouraging their kids to go to school are cruel, I think the loan companies are", ">\n\nOf course.\nBut it's not like people feel pressure to go to college because they have an innate natural desire to make loan companies happy. The pressures come from the expectations of people close to them - young people want to follow their trusted mentors' best advice.\nAll the predatory stuff is downstream of that pressure - exploiting the situation, yes, but not creating the situation.", ">\n\nI'm confused. Is the argument really that it's unjust to send kids (back) to school at 18, or that they can't drink and smoke?", ">\n\nA better argument would be that 18 year olds have received little to no education on financial literacy. A few hundred thousand in loans sounds like an insane amount but they may have little to no context as to how long that will actually take to pay off. The loans also could not be issued by any bank to an 18 year old for any other reason due to safe lending laws.\nAlso the issue here is the cost of college, not what age they go to college. It’s not really that much better that I wait until 25 so that I understand how badly I’m getting fucked over before doing it", ">\n\nIs it *just\" the cost of college, or is it pressuring 18 year olds to make a decision they may not have full context to understand? Should they go to college? Trade school? Gap year? Internship?\nShould an 18 year old feel rushed to go to college immediately after high school when they're not sure of what they want to do yet? Because if they decide they don't like the college path they've chosen, they'll still have to pay those loans off, but won't have a degree.\nPersonally I was pushed into making a decision ASAP, I had about a month after high school before I was being threatened with getting kicked out, so I chose trade school, didn't like it, wasn't good at it, wasn't a fit, but graduated for the sake of graduating and never worked professionally in that field. I still had to pay 14k in loans, which is no small amount for someone that young.\nIt's not so much the cost, but the value you get from the cost.", ">\n\nNo it's entirely the cost. The downside you described only exists because of the cost. If the cost wasn't there, then whats your downside? Oh no I'm 21 and have decided to take my life in a different direction?", ">\n\nPerhaps the discussion should be about asking an 18 year old to borrow large amounts of money. \nFor much of the developed world, going to college after high school is about studying, not taking on a lifetime debt.", ">\n\nIt’s the same in the USA; OP’s example of $300K of debt is a ridiculous exception to the norm. Average USA student debt at graduation is $29K. He’s off by an order of magnitude.", ">\n\nWell... it sounds like you're actually arguing that it's cruel that we make people pay for their college rather than providing it free like primary/secondary school. That's a very different view. \nThe reason it's encouraged to continue with higher education after high school is exactly because people's brains are less plastic after about age 25. It's not that you can't learn after that, obviously... but it does get progressively more difficult (edit: and therefore, to your apparent actual point, more expensive). \nSo yes, it makes complete sense if we want an educated populace (which we do, because the world is more complicated than it used to be), that people be encouraged to get that education young. It's just going to get harder and slower as you age.", ">\n\nBased on this I’m assuming your a teenager. First, noones getting student loans for 300k. Second, college is smart do it. Alternatively, you can just work at a gas station the rest of your life or try to make it as an influencer.\nMost of my friends that did not go to college and had the same thought process as you are currently having a hard time financially in their 30s.", ">\n\nI am a full time undergrad student but I wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision I was making prior to enrolling in a four-year university. I also think it is inaccurate and quite absurd to suggest that people without college degrees will become “influencers” and gas station workers when options such as trade and technical schools exist.", ">\n\n\nI wish I had been more financially literate and better prepared for the decision\n\nThis is an argument to support the fact that your education was inadequate prior to college, not an argument against college itself.\nYes, K-12 schools should teach a lot of life skills, including financial literacy, that would benefit all students in their future decision-making. What you'll discover as you get older is that you spent a lot of time in school learning stuff you will never use — time that could have been spent teaching you things that become hard lessons later on. School generally prepares you for more school, not life.", ">\n\nI don’t know what school you went to but I have never had a class in financial literacy in my entire schooling. I do agree that my education prior to university was inadequate, but it is not common to learn financial literacy in school", ">\n\nYes, I agree. It's not generally taught in schools. This is a problem. \nBut my point is, it's the real problem you're pointing to. Despite 13 years of education, you were not properly prepared to make these decisions that everyone knew were coming. The issue is not that there's pressure to continue education; it's that nobody prepares students for the financial decisions they're going to have to make in order to do so.", ">\n\nNo, that is not the real problem, although it is a problem. \nThe real problem is the cost of college in the first place.\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point. But it's the actual answer. College is way too expensive. That's what is predatory. Higher education for its own sake is valuable. I want to live in a place where people value education, not just being a good worker bee as early as possible. This path should not be only available to the highest echelons of society. \nIt's not okay to tell people of any age that they should do trades because college is too expensive. Working in trades is hell on your body, and the average career length, not to mention career earnings, is much less than those who work in professional fields of any type.\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.", ">\n\n\nI don't know why no one is addressing this point. Maybe because it's not an actual reply to OP's point.\n\nYes, that's why. This is CMV, so respondents are required to address OP's point and try to change their view. OP's title premise doesn't mention anything about the cost of college or debt, and the view stated in the text originally made assertions about 18 year-olds not having sufficient decision-making capacity.\n\nThe solution is fully funded post-secondary education for any and everyone who wants it.\n\nSure, but that's also an argument against OP's stated view that 18 year-olds should not be encouraged to attend college. \nFully funded post-secondary education is also already the norm in some countries, so depending on how we interpret OP's use of \"society,\" it may be irrelevant.\nBasically, by OP's own subsequent admission, they worded the post poorly.", ">\n\nConsidering OP's premise is that teenagers shouldn't be encouraged to attend college due to exorbitant costs, I think we can safely assume they live in the US.", ">\n\nFunny, bud. I am a full time college student but I do wish I had better understood what I was getting myself into so I could have considered other education options, taken my prereqs at community college, and generally just have been better educated in personal finance so that I would have had better direction", ">\n\nWhat do you consider the downsides of you going to college?\nI didn't go to university (what we call college here) so I have done the alternative that you're suggesting and I'm interested in hearing your opinion", ">\n\nI’m going to post a longer response but I generally think 18 year old are not well equipped to make the most out of their college experience, which does not make it its money’s worth", ">\n\nAn 18yo is a legal adult (I assume you're talking about the USA). They're denied access to a handful of vices, but otherwise have the full suite of legal rights and responsibilities of a 45yo. It seems weird to think that college or even student loans are more demanding or harder to understand than a full-time job and a mortgage.\nThe reason young people are encouraged to go to college is because it is generally a very good financial investment and offers a fairly gentle transition into adult life. It's a fairly low risk option with great potential upsides.", ">\n\nr/USdefaultism ?", ">\n\n\nlives paying back up to 300k in student loans.\n\nJust fix this problem. It doesn't seem like a smart idea of individuals to profit off the improved education of your population.", ">\n\nThe cruel and predatory thing is that universities charge so dang much for tuition. The cost of the issue, not encouraging kids to seek higher education." ]