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[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress..." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh", ">\n\nI support 99% of this bill and equal rights for all. However, the ability this bill gives for teenagers to transition before their brain has fully formed and they have moved on from peer pressure, especially in a culture of influencers, is the line sadly. As a parent and ex-teenager this will cause a huge amount of pain and suffering to those kids that regret their irreversible decision. \nWhich isn't uncommon today\nA shame the bill had to include that" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh", ">\n\nI support 99% of this bill and equal rights for all. However, the ability this bill gives for teenagers to transition before their brain has fully formed and they have moved on from peer pressure, especially in a culture of influencers, is the line sadly. As a parent and ex-teenager this will cause a huge amount of pain and suffering to those kids that regret their irreversible decision. \nWhich isn't uncommon today\nA shame the bill had to include that", ">\n\nAh thanks for that information!!! I'll dig more into it. I watched the breakdown of the bill on Scottish tv (which was pretty pro the bill) and it had a slightly different take" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh", ">\n\nI support 99% of this bill and equal rights for all. However, the ability this bill gives for teenagers to transition before their brain has fully formed and they have moved on from peer pressure, especially in a culture of influencers, is the line sadly. As a parent and ex-teenager this will cause a huge amount of pain and suffering to those kids that regret their irreversible decision. \nWhich isn't uncommon today\nA shame the bill had to include that", ">\n\nAh thanks for that information!!! I'll dig more into it. I watched the breakdown of the bill on Scottish tv (which was pretty pro the bill) and it had a slightly different take", ">\n\nLol and people still try to pretend the UK is 4 Countries when Parliament can pull shit like this" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh", ">\n\nI support 99% of this bill and equal rights for all. However, the ability this bill gives for teenagers to transition before their brain has fully formed and they have moved on from peer pressure, especially in a culture of influencers, is the line sadly. As a parent and ex-teenager this will cause a huge amount of pain and suffering to those kids that regret their irreversible decision. \nWhich isn't uncommon today\nA shame the bill had to include that", ">\n\nAh thanks for that information!!! I'll dig more into it. I watched the breakdown of the bill on Scottish tv (which was pretty pro the bill) and it had a slightly different take", ">\n\nLol and people still try to pretend the UK is 4 Countries when Parliament can pull shit like this", ">\n\nIn my experience most people who comment on the Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland/Ireland VS England type posts are usually Americans. For the most part America’s identity is welded to the events of 250 years ago, so they tend to template match and come up with ‘Scotland needs a tea party’ before they’ve finished the headline.\nThey always seem to see it as that time America wanted independence, not that time the southern states wanted independence" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh", ">\n\nI support 99% of this bill and equal rights for all. However, the ability this bill gives for teenagers to transition before their brain has fully formed and they have moved on from peer pressure, especially in a culture of influencers, is the line sadly. As a parent and ex-teenager this will cause a huge amount of pain and suffering to those kids that regret their irreversible decision. \nWhich isn't uncommon today\nA shame the bill had to include that", ">\n\nAh thanks for that information!!! I'll dig more into it. I watched the breakdown of the bill on Scottish tv (which was pretty pro the bill) and it had a slightly different take", ">\n\nLol and people still try to pretend the UK is 4 Countries when Parliament can pull shit like this", ">\n\nIn my experience most people who comment on the Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland/Ireland VS England type posts are usually Americans. For the most part America’s identity is welded to the events of 250 years ago, so they tend to template match and come up with ‘Scotland needs a tea party’ before they’ve finished the headline.\nThey always seem to see it as that time America wanted independence, not that time the southern states wanted independence", ">\n\nI'm not really a Scottish Independence Advocate \nThough after Brexit I definitely understand their frustrations with the England dominated UK Government" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh", ">\n\nI support 99% of this bill and equal rights for all. However, the ability this bill gives for teenagers to transition before their brain has fully formed and they have moved on from peer pressure, especially in a culture of influencers, is the line sadly. As a parent and ex-teenager this will cause a huge amount of pain and suffering to those kids that regret their irreversible decision. \nWhich isn't uncommon today\nA shame the bill had to include that", ">\n\nAh thanks for that information!!! I'll dig more into it. I watched the breakdown of the bill on Scottish tv (which was pretty pro the bill) and it had a slightly different take", ">\n\nLol and people still try to pretend the UK is 4 Countries when Parliament can pull shit like this", ">\n\nIn my experience most people who comment on the Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland/Ireland VS England type posts are usually Americans. For the most part America’s identity is welded to the events of 250 years ago, so they tend to template match and come up with ‘Scotland needs a tea party’ before they’ve finished the headline.\nThey always seem to see it as that time America wanted independence, not that time the southern states wanted independence", ">\n\nI'm not really a Scottish Independence Advocate \nThough after Brexit I definitely understand their frustrations with the England dominated UK Government", ">\n\nWhy?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh", ">\n\nI support 99% of this bill and equal rights for all. However, the ability this bill gives for teenagers to transition before their brain has fully formed and they have moved on from peer pressure, especially in a culture of influencers, is the line sadly. As a parent and ex-teenager this will cause a huge amount of pain and suffering to those kids that regret their irreversible decision. \nWhich isn't uncommon today\nA shame the bill had to include that", ">\n\nAh thanks for that information!!! I'll dig more into it. I watched the breakdown of the bill on Scottish tv (which was pretty pro the bill) and it had a slightly different take", ">\n\nLol and people still try to pretend the UK is 4 Countries when Parliament can pull shit like this", ">\n\nIn my experience most people who comment on the Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland/Ireland VS England type posts are usually Americans. For the most part America’s identity is welded to the events of 250 years ago, so they tend to template match and come up with ‘Scotland needs a tea party’ before they’ve finished the headline.\nThey always seem to see it as that time America wanted independence, not that time the southern states wanted independence", ">\n\nI'm not really a Scottish Independence Advocate \nThough after Brexit I definitely understand their frustrations with the England dominated UK Government", ">\n\nWhy?", ">\n\nFuck the UK" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nYou are a king", ">\n\nNo, he is The King", ">\n\nSome would suspect that Sturgeon knew this would happen, giving more weight to independence calls. I don't think that is the case imo.", ">\n\nI dont think she wanted it to happen, but she also knew that it could benefit the Independence movement. If Westminster tried to block the bill it would potentially help both the Independence movement AND trans people in Scotland, while if Westminster let the bill pass it would benefit trans people in Scotland. Either way its a benefit from Sturgeon's position. It was the right move both morally and politically.", ">\n\nA classic Xanatos gambit.", ">\n\nTo this day I still don't understand what he wanted with the gargoyles. He brought them back just to take down that airship?", ">\n\nI think he just wanted counselor troi and couldn't deal that she had been with goliath", ">\n\nHoooooly shit, was that Jonathan Frakes? I always wondered why he was such a comforting villain when I was little.", ">\n\nAlmost the entire Gargoyles voice cast was made up of Star Trek actors, Worf, Janeway, Data, et al.", ">\n\nOK now I’m just gonna have to watch the show so I can hear my Star Trek peeps.", ">\n\nWhat’s your gender? Scottish! Denied! What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don’t know that!", ">\n\nHow do you know so much about swallows", ">\n\nYou have to know these things when you're a king, you know.", ">\n\nDangerous game Sunak, seems we’ve moved on from the “Scotland is a valued part of this union and we’d hate to see you leave” line to “Scotland, know your place.” And people don’t tend to respond well to being told that…", ">\n\nThat will only work if the Scottish people like Trans people more than their English counterparts. We can only hope.\nEdit: Just want to thank everyone who responded. I appreciate being reassured about this.", ">\n\nI can guarantee you that the Scottish like being told what to do by the English less than just about anything else.", ">\n\nThey'd probably rather be surrounded by Americans badly imitating their accents while loudly talking about visiting the \"home country\" and \"you know I'm 1/128th Scottish\" and asking what clan everybody's in, than be told what to do by the English.\nI mean, I'm not 100% sure about that, but history seems to point that direction.", ">\n\nThe way this post is 99.9999% how the A.A. side of my family act when they visit Nigeria.", ">\n\nWhich I don’t get why anyone is hating on people being excited about going back to where their ancestors came from and finding out more about your history. \nJust seems like a way to hate on America. I’m Canadian and we love going to Scotland and Ireland to trace our ancestry. I went to Wales just for that. And I get that it can be annoying since they are tourists visiting where you live because to you it’s just home but to them it’s all new and so so cool.\nEdit- and most southern African Americans know zero about their heritage since you know slavery so come on, let’s be excited about people going back home.", ">\n\nAn american woman once told me she was scottish. When I asked her where abouts in Scotland she was from, she told me that she had never actually been there, but she proudly told me that her great grandfather was born in Scotland. She didn't know the town. She just knew it was somewhere.\nThe issue is American's love to cling to any kind of heiritage they can. It's like they can't be satisfied that they grew up in the wealthiest country in the world and are desperate to come from somewhere else to mske them sound more interesting. It doesn't particularly bother me, but an american telling me they are Scottish without even stepping foot in Scotland is laughable", ">\n\nCanada and the United States are a country of immigrants, everyone who came here left their home and roots. So even if they don’t know about their heritage since most of it is lost and forgotten and not passed down they are trying to find out who they are and where they come from. \nYou don’t get it because you live where you always lived and that’s fine but I just like to see people enjoy cool and have fun and maybe find out more about themselves.", ">\n\nThank God that in the midst of worldwide economic and political crisis the Tories are dealing with the real problem: Scottish trans teenagers", ">\n\nAlso has no affect on anything medically at all which a lot of people seem to be bringing up in opposition to this. This does not change any requirements for hormones, puberty blockers or surgery.", ">\n\nCan someone explain why some people feel so strongly about this, all the same? This is one of the very few issues I can remember that has generated dissent within the parliamentary SNP so there has to be more to it than a short term Tory play to their base.", ">\n\nMost people I've spoken to about this specifically misunderstand the point I've made above. They seem to think that this bill offers sweeping changes that allow 16 year olds to go through surgery, and hormones, and puberty blockers which isn't at all the case.\nFrom what I can tell this bill has some serious quality of life changes for trans people but actually nothing that will change the lives at all of the vast majority of the population.", ">\n\nLeave it to the English to try to enforce gender standards on a nation of men in skirts.", ">\n\nYou joke but the very fact that there is such a perfect uniform/outfit(?) for those wanting to support trans rights whilst also supporting Scottish independence means that this could well be the turning point.", ">\n\nHoly smokes, a pink/blue/white trans tartan would be PERFECT!", ">\n\nI mean, I agree with you here. I’m Trans and half Scottish. I wouldn’t wear a kilt as I associate it more with men. Plus as I believe my clan is armigerous it’s a moot point. But if I did wear Tartan I’d wear it as a source of pride not as a source of my gender identity.\nThat’s what the thigh highs are for", ">\n\nGrats England you just helped forward the Scottish independence movement and also probably got conservative Scots more on the side of trans people just to spite you.", ">\n\nGotta love how many people unite against Imperialism, even if they're all different.", ">\n\n\"critics of the plans are worried that allowing anyone to \"self-identify\" as a woman could impact on women's rights and access to single-sex spaces like refuges and changing rooms.\"", ">\n\nCool, let's instead put trans men in women's changing rooms and bathrooms.", ">\n\nBigots love to forget that trans men exist because they ruin the \"Won't someone think of the women and children's safety?!?\" narrative.", ">\n\nThey don't forget. They just don't see them as a threat.", ">\n\nBullshit. \nActual transitioned transmen are never allowed into women's changing rooms or bathrooms.", ">\n\nThe root of all evil is in the penis. Once you have one, you're worthy of fear as a potential predator; whether you were born with it or not is irrelevant. That's why no woman has ever been convicted of a violent or sexual crime.", ">\n\nThe number is very little in comparison, but it's not zero.", ">\n\nI'm going to assume there is a degree of sarcasm in the comment you replied to, considering plenty of women have been convicted of violent crimes.", ">\n\n20 points behind in the polls, the Tories have resigned to losing the next election, so they're torching the economy, the union and our civil liberties as they go out.", ">\n\nGot to leave a shit show for the next guy it's the gubments way.", ">\n\nAnd then blame that government for the shit show to win at the next election. A tactic as old as democracy.", ">\n\nEven better if it's a female leader. They don't call it a glass cliff for nothing.", ">\n\nHow about blocking the UK government's anti strike bill instead", ">\n\nScotland: Hey we want to make the lives of our people slightly better\nUK: You just broke our number 1 rule", ">\n\nYou realise Scotland is part of the UK right?", ">\n\nTories suddenly feel like governing the second they can do performative politics instead of, oh, I don't know, pushing fantastic policies that destroy their economy and respect. Oh wait, they do that too. Fucking JK Rowling land over there", ">\n\nMaybe this is a stupid American comment, but that really reminds me of republicans. It seems there is a trend in right wing politicians never doing anything usefull and instead filling their agenda with \"culture war\" bullshit. From what I've heard the UK has a CoL crisis, which you'd think they'd be busy with. Instead they would rather flaunt their bigotry and fuck over a tiny minority of people who are just trying to be happy and live their lives.", ">\n\nI’m sick of being a political tool. I’m just trying to live.", ">\n\nA customer complained about my trans husband using the men’s room at his place of work. He’s going to find out tomorrow if he’s going to be allowed to keep using the men’s room or if he’ll be forced to use the women’s, or… what. We live in FL so who knows. Shit sucks man, all he wanted was to take a piss on his lunch break!", ">\n\nYou should get out of FL if you can. The fascist regime there is only getting worse.", ">\n\nI guarantee you any trans person in Florida is well aware of what the score is.", ">\n\nMany are. Some aren't. More importantly, especially as this is r/worldnews, many people outside of the US aren't aware of how far down the path of fascism Florida has gone.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nThe UK government has decided to block a controversial Scottish bill designed to make it easier for people to change their legally recognised gender.\nHe added: \"If the Scottish government chooses to bring an amended bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, I hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward that both respects devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation.\"\nScottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has argued there are no grounds for the UK government to challenge the legislation as it falls within the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: bill^#1 Scottish^#2 law^#3 gender^#4 minister^#5", ">\n\nWhy? Honestly as humans we’ve lost sight of what life is about. Living.", ">\n\nAh yes the scots, well known for being compliant and deferential when the english tell them what to do", ">\n\nI just don’t know how people think that some people will pretend to be trans just to get into women’s spaces like bathrooms. There’s nothing stopping anyone from going in there except social convention, and pretty much no one is going to change their entire life to creep in women’s bathrooms. Plus, if anyone (trans or cis) is acting creepy in a bathroom, they can still be held accountable for it. They are making an issue out of nothing.", ">\n\nBecause it's not really about that at all. It's a disingenuous, nonsensical argument that's used because it invokes moral panic.\nAnybody who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds can recognize it makes no sense. But instead of saying \"trans people existing makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't like them\" they get to pretend \"Oh no I just want to make sure people are safe from predators won't someone think of the women and children\".\nThey're just \"concerned\" for other peoples \"safety\". And if you don't agree, well obviously that's because you just don't care about peoples safety. You must be the real bad guy here not them.", ">\n\nI have no doubt that the politicians and leaders don't believe it, but the fact that it works on so many people is so depressing", ">\n\nDo you want the Scots to break away? Because this step 1 in forcing the Scots to break away.", ">\n\nIt might be, but it’s worth looking at the polling on this topic. Like the rest of the UK, the broad Scottish sentiment is in favour of more inclusivity, but polls that use specific wording for this bill (e.g. ‘do you support or oppose reducing the age at which a person can apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16?) show a large majority against (or at least the ones that are in the Times do!).", ">\n\nPanelbase came to a similar conclusion; it seems Scots take issue more with the implementation rather then the basic idea", ">\n\nIts the same in the rest of the UK, despite Reddits opinion the English aren't like that Monkey Dust sketch about occupied oireland. The average Brit supports trans peoples rights to live their lives, they just also have concerns about protected womens spaces. Which is what the SNPs own advisors said, removing nearly all burden of proof that you're trans with no exceptions is not protecting trans people. Its handing power to transphobes who can now point to people abusing it.", ">\n\nAs someone who lives in a self id area, it doesn't make things worse for trans people. The women's spaces thing is based on a hypothetical that does not systemically happen. It's based on a lie. Why should trans people's lives be made worse based on a bigoted lie?", ">\n\nTories about to get twatted in the face with a rake", ">\n\nA complex topic that cuts across both reserved matters in UK-wide constitutional law and gender equality? This isn’t going to be one of Reddit’s best discussions…", ">\n\nAlready seeing it. 9 comments in and yours is the only one pointing out the conflict with national law. All the rest are knee jerk on Tories/English being evil.", ">\n\nIt was only 500 years ago that England stopped getting fucked by the rest of Europe and started to fuck other nations.\nAnd Scotland was right alongside them when they did.\n1000 years ago England was nearing being violently taken over by another non-English king", ">\n\nReminder that the union came about when the Scots bankrupted themselves with a colonial Ponzi scheme and had to turn to the English for help.", ">\n\nShhh, this is reddit. Scotland good. England bad. Let's just ignore that Scotland is trying to rewrite their role in the British Empire.", ">\n\nCan anyone explain why it is that the UK government is blocking a bill that was already debated and signed in Scotland?\nI'm Canadian, so I assumed that Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales/England were similar to provinces in that they had control over certain things (like education and health care), and the UK government handled the rest. What's going on exactly?", ">\n\nThe law comes into conflict with the UK-wide equalities law, for example allowing people to use the scottlish law to circumvent the rest of the union. \nThis law whilst in theory \"applies to scotland only\", someone from wales could move there, change genders, and then move back to wales, having totally ignored the legal framework for changing genders in wales.\nThe overarching concern on its impact for uk-wide policy and coming into conflict with existing humans rights laws is in my opinion a legitmate one\nthis is the first time in history this mechanism has been used to block a law, its not a decision that has been taken lightly or on a whim.", ">\n\nJust to add to this, the Gender Identity Clinic wait times in the UK (the first step) is averaging around 3 years.", ">\n\n3 years would be a substantial improvement.\n\nWe are currently offering first appointment to people who were referred in: January 2018\n\nThat's five years, but that's only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of people on our waiting list: 11,407\nNumber of first appointments offered in the month: 50\n\nThat's 19 years worth of wait list. If you are referred today you would be waiting about two decades for your appointment. Which is still only the start of the problem.\n\nNumber of referrals received in the month: 327\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer. Which is still only the start of the problem because even getting a referral is not as easy as it's legally required to be.", ">\n\n\nEvery month the waitlist gets six-and-a-half months longer\n\nPlease understand that I'm asking these questions to learn and understand, not to make a political point, and that I have no wish to offend anyone, and apologize in advance should that happen.\nIf people are being seen that were referred 5 years ago, and the waiting list grows by 6 months plus every month, is this due to a recent reduction in services available or an increase in demand?\nIf there is an increase in demand, what is driving the increase?\nAgain, I'm not making a point. I know very little about this issue, certainly not enough to form an informed opinion.", ">\n\nIt's primarily because the UK's gender clinic system is structurally opposed to the goal of efficiently providing healthcare for trans patients.", ">\n\nAs a kiwi that's moved over here, I can assure you the bathrooms are the same.\nI don't think the bathroom debate ever had any relation to reality. It's always been a \"won't somebody think of the children!\" argument used instead of real facts", ">\n\nA bit of context for those unfamiliar with the laws regarding trans peoplenin the UK\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\nCompare this with the law as is in the UK, the steps are as follows.\nGet a referal from your physician to a gender clinic (this is supposed to happen immediatly but many primary care doctors will \"lose track\" or \"forgot to file it sorry hun\" or \"have you considered just doing drag on the weekends?)\nBe put into the system at the gender care clinic (time will be mentioned later)\nbe asked dozens of extremely probing questions, many about how you masturbate because the people trained to do this sre going off an archaic model of being transgender that buffolo bill was based on, and answer/lie to their satisfaction because if you do not meet ehsts in their out of date notebook, they will mark you as not counting, restarting this.\nProceed to a psychological evaluation by at least two different shrinks who diagnose you with trans\nsomewhere in here fit in several years of \"real world experience\" living as your identified gender with precisly 0 medical aid (most trans people who transition medically usually start horomones while publically closeted so they'll pass better once they make the switch, anywayy throw that safety strategy out the window)\nand after all this, you can finally, finally be issued a gender recognition certificate, get horomones and most importantly do things you need government papers for such as get married or adopt.\nalso the wait time on the clinics is currently 24 years. \nNo other country does any of this like this. This whole process is easier in the bowels of texas provided you are an adult, and while in other ways its obviously worse, I don't think anywhere outside places that reckon being queer ought to be a felony outright is this beurocraticslly hostile.\nThat is what the law just passed in Scotland sought to rectify, and the order of things that lead westminster to veto Scotland for the first and only time since it got powers devolved to it over 25 fucking years ago.\nEngland is dog country", ">\n\n\nwhat he scots have done is basically changed to the system that everyone else uses, where to change the gender on your paperwork, you rock up to the relevant official, sign some paperwork promising you are being serious and this isn't in aid of any non gender related scheme, and you get on with your life.\n\nEveryone else? Do you have a source for that? I highly doubt that there are many countries where they just take your word for it.", ">\n\nIt’s not “everywhere else” but there are quite a few places that do it this. From memory Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Argentina, and several Brazilian and Indian states. That is by no means an exhaustive list (I remember reading a statistic from a trans advocacy group saying that roughly 1/3 of the population of the planet lives in jurisdictions where this is the means of changing gender legally), and there are even more countries where this is becoming the case (again from memory legislation has been proposed in Canada and Germany but hasn’t yet passed).", ">\n\nThanks' for the answer. :) I'm from Germany and knew that we still have a shitty law that is close to the one of the UK and and the Netherlands you need a doctor to approve of it. That's why I was asking. I also hope that the law will be changed in Germany soon.", ">\n\n\n\"Transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding,\" he said.\n\nThey mean gender?", ">\n\nNope they want to change how their sex is registered in the system.", ">\n\nI thought everyone was agreeing that sex and gender were different.", ">\n\n....they are. There is a legal record of your sex made when you are born. There is no legal record of your gender.", ">\n\nBut if there is agreement that they are different then how can you change your sex? Seems problematic", ">\n\nif you want to scream about that maybe they should just track gender instead of sex, there is no purpose in keeping track of sex, they don't check your nationally registered sex in medical enviroments", ">\n\nThat would make much more sense.", ">\n\nI hope Scotland have the freedom to choose what it wants.", ">\n\nIt drives me insane that this argument always comes down to “men invading women’s spaces for nefarious reasons” so let’s be honest about the fact that they’re not really talking about trans people they’re just saying CIS MEN CAN’T BE TRUSTED! So if that’s the case why the fuck should I listen to male politicians?", ">\n\nIt's always about toilets for regressive goons. The article is specific to the US but the same thinking applies.", ">\n\nIt’s kinda like they don’t care what Scotland says at all. Still trying to keep them from Brexiting are we?", ">\n\nThey don't care because they don't need to.\nAt the last election in 2019, the current Tory government got enough seats in England alone that they'd still have won by a comfortable 19-seat majority even if everyone in Scotland (or outside England, for that matter) had voted against them.\nJohnson (who was the PM at that time) rose to power on the basis of the English-masquerading-as-British nationalist scheme that was Brexit. Brexit was opposed in Scotland (we voted Remain by a 24% margin) and Johnson was generally disliked up here- he was never meant to appeal to us.\nScotland hasn't returned a majority of Tory MPs to Westminster since the 1950s. However, that political chasm started becoming serious when Margaret Thatcher was elected in 1979 on the basis of English votes, despite being widely disliked in Scotland.\nIn the last election, three quarters of Scots voted against the Tories.\nEngland has continued moving to the right since and, quite bluntly, there isn't enough common ground left in the union for any compromise to be workable even if they wanted that.\nWhat Scotland wants and what England wants are fundamentally incompatible, and no amount of trying to fudge the democratic process by pro-union has-beens like Gordon Brown can get around that.", ">\n\nIt has been blocked as equality laws have to be applied evenly across the entire UK. So while a region may vote for a change in some laws, they have to applied UK wide, not regionally, and that would require a UK vote.", ">\n\nSo what gender did Scotland turn out to be ?", ">\n\nYes", ">\n\nYou mean I could be Male, Female, or Scottish?", ">\n\nI was in Scotland not so long ago. There was a vibrant youth scene there and they seemed very open to people being gender fluid... As long as you weren't a wanker and knew how to have fun they didn't seem to give too much of a shit. Identity politics is a tool of the right to distract idiots from massive government corruption. Don't have a house, are you working pay and conditions worsening, can't get access to healthcare... Forget all that shit because that guy wants to wear a dress...", ">\n\nDo you want an independent Scotland? Because that’s how you get it.", ">\n\nThe tories can fuck off, they don't speak for us", ">\n\nwell looking at the polling for this bill amongst the scottish public, it seems the scottish government dont speak for you either", ">\n\nReading the comments here, one would get the impression that the UK government is opposed to gender changes while Scotland allows it. From the article, gender changes are allowed. The differences are age, a diagnosis and the length of the waiting period:\n\n\nminimum age: 16 (Scotland) vs. 18 (UK)\n\n\nremove the UK's need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria\n\n\nhave lived as their acquired gender for three months (Scotland) rather than two years - or six months if they are aged 16 or 17\n\n\nSo you could argue that Scotland is also oppressive. Why not 14 years of age instead of 16? Why not 1 month instead of 3 months after living with their acquired gender?\nUK vs. Scottish jurisdictional issues aside, this is a shades of gray issue. No absolutes.\nEdit: wow. I see that many silent view this as an absolute. Possibly, an absolute dislike of the Tories in London. I'm Canadian and I read the article and then the comments out of curiousity.", ">\n\nIt’s like Westminster wants Scotland to be independent.", ">\n\nI think my estimated wait to see my gender clinic is like 14 years, been trans for 2. \nTeens can fuck and have their own teens the same age as them before they get a diagnosis depending on where you live. The whole reason for this is because of the fucking state of gender clinics and how ineffective they are. And the younger people are focused on but all the adults this would benefit are just as fucked. \nIts not a complicated thing to let GPs treat and assess with basic information. If you don't let them do that and create convoluted systems, you get the outcome of people killing themselves going years without help or you just remove the barriers. \nNearly every trans gal I know does diy meds imported with little medical supervision. Because that's what the systems designed to be like.\nCan get surgery fear mongering but hrt isn't some big boogie man thing and as long as being prescribed and monitored by a Dr its as low risk as any other form of care.", ">\n\nMaybe Scotland needs its own Brexit from the UK.", ">\n\nThey already had a once in a generation vote on it", ">\n\nImagine doing something that could tear apart the UK just to stop trans peoples' lives from being slightly easier. Unfathomable bigotry and stupidity.", ">\n\nI don't understand this argument unless you also want to raise the age of consent.\nWhy is 16 an appropriate age to have a child, but someone of the same age cannot make decisions about their own identity?", ">\n\nWe should raise the age of consent. Just because teenagers have sex when they turn 16 legally, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.", ">\n\nYup, basically.", ">\n\nSurely the majority of Scots believe that this bill is utterly ridiculous?", ">\n\nI swear these rightwing parties have the goal of causing division in unions in order to break them apart and the timing coinciding with Putins war plus all the stuff about Russian meddling in western politics, it really makes me wonder.", ">\n\n\nchildren should not be allowed the option to make this life-changing decision\n\nOK, I'll bite. Like, say, getting married, joining the army, having a child, owning a house, going to jail, voting in a nation wide referendum, aquiring large amounts of debt? Those kinds of life-altering decisions? Cause it seems like the Tories don't mind you ruining your life in a large number of ways, as long as you're not deciding how to treat your own body!", ">\n\nthank god, that bill is madness", ">\n\nThe trans topic is one that I find the most frustrating because the statements regarding what’s said is very confusing. Things said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender. To someone like me who is a early 90’s baby, all of those statements is something I went most of my life never been told. Matter of fact, I was taught the complete opposite.\nWhat I am getting at is, the only forced thing society pushing is actually the statements that I listed. The average adult has went through most of life without hearing what is spoken today and it feels like this movement is trying to bend things to suit their beliefs or demands. Despite it being so Confusing and making no sense sometimes, I’m seeing backlash over being confused about it. I support trans rights, but I don’t support trans people having rights on EVERYTHING they demand because the list is getting longer and crazier. There needs to be boundaries to suit everyone regardless of gender and gender identity. \nWhen it comes to the driving force in the trans movement, it’s mostly trans women trying to gain access to things assigned only to cis gender women. Sports, prisons and bathrooms being the main three. They don’t want to be considered someone that identities as a woman, but who IS a woman from what I gathered from multiple comments. Trans women are more protected than cis gender women,\nIt seems. And that’s a problem. \nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender. A trans woman can and had fallen in love with a cis gender woman. Same thing with trans men attracted to cis men.\nThat’s sex (sexuality). Recently I heard of a transgender female child be called a tomboy and a lesbian. That’s someone born male, who got a sex (gender) change as a minor, who is acting like a boy and is attracted to girls.\nAll I am saying is, it’s to much to process and I feel even the people who are so-called experts are not making that any easier. The whole thing is moving faster than the time people have to process it and where them pushing laws out during this time feels more like a political stunt.", ">\n\n\nThings said like; gender is something society labeled on people at random and that biology has no role in assigning gender.\n\nI'm pretty plugged into queer communities and no one is saying this, this is not a common view at all. Society assigns and views peoples gender fairly strictly according to biology, this is not something people disagree with, in fact it is kind of the problem.\nThe only exception I can think of are with intersex people whose biology at birth do not offer clear idea of what the sex is.\n\nI don’t understand why it’s called getting a sex change. Sex has nothing to do with gender.\n\nWell for one thats a colloquialism of what its actually called, Sexual Reassignment Surgery, and for two its rooted in old terminology that is being phased out. The modern term is 'Gender Affirmation Surgery' for exactly the reason you point out. Its the same trend that has 'transexual' being near extinct as a term.\nThere is an argument to be made that sex itself is more a loose cluster of biological traits rather than a strictly defined thing, so therefore with enough medical intervention sex can be changed. But its stretching and isn't really what's meant here.", ">\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell something. (And boy do they have a lot of \"affirming\" treatments to sell!) \"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. I don't see why any government should be recognizing it.", ">\n\n\nHow about we stop recognizing \"gender\" altogether? Men and women can dress how they want. In some spaces, where it is justified, like prisons, shelters, and changing rooms, people are sorted by their bio sex. Otherwise, you can \"exist\" however you want.\nEveryone has a biological sex and it can't be changed.\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go? The women's room? Really? Like, really)? If it was really just as simple as that then we just wouldn't have bothered.\n\n\"Gender\" as a concept seems to be either sexist stereotypes, or some metaphysical equivalent of a coloured aura. \n\nHonestly just try reading the Wikipedia page. There are far too many correlates between gender and biology for it to all be a massive coincidence. You can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex. Compared to the less than 1% chance of this happening in an average child. Identical twins are something like 7x more likely to both be transgender than non-identical twins. There are several differences found in genes relating to estrogen pathways in the brain that prominent in transgender samples but absent in control populations. Transgender women are disproportionately likely to have errors in their testosterone receptors that inhibit testosterone. MRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men. Women both with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are considerably more likely than women without to end up being trans gender. You could do this all day. It just goes on and on and on.", ">\n\n\nTrans man transitions young and gets all the surgeries. Ends up 6'0 with a magnum dong. Where do they go?\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nYou can literally give a baby a sex change, raise them as the opposite sex their whole life and the chances are still basically 50/50 that they'll come out as \"feeling\" like the \"opposite\" sex\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. A feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nMRI scans suggest that the brains of transgender women are at the very least distinct from cis men.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.", ">\n\n\nProbably where they make the most vulnerable the least uncomfortable.\nIf someone indeed completely \"passes\", then it's not really an issue. Despite some claims, no one is doing genital inspections.\n\nI mean that's fair, but it does directly contradict what you said about sorting based on bio sex. And in places like prisons I'm pretty sure they do strip searches so that is rather unavoidable.\n\nThat might be because no sex change, no matter how early it is done, is full. A person still requires lifetime injections of exogenous hormones which cannot possibly be adjusted to a natural balance, and sexual feeling and function in the genitals is distinctly modified from its natural function. \n\nThat is certainly true, but then the question is what did they settle on feeling like the \"opposite\" sex? Not even close to a majority of people with hormone issues or genital issues jump that conclusion.\n\nA feeling of \"something's wrong\" is pretty much expected.\n\nThey were given false reasonings for what was wrong. It would seem to be a very large coincidence that they all figured out exactly what was wrong or just happened to start feeling like the opposite sex independently. Again, we are talking about something that normally happens in under 1% of the population happening in 50% of these kids. There has to have been something pushing them towards the transgender option, and since society was gaslighting them it wasn't society.\nBesides even just this is interesting. If there is something in the brain telling them what their sexual feeling and function should be like and what its natural function is then what would happen if, hypothetically, that part of the brain was changed somehow? Because that leads us basically back down the transgender path.\n\nAll studies relating to brain differences in transgender people are confounded by sexual orientation. It's probable that what's being observed is in fact orientation, which has been proven to produce statistically significant differences.\n\nI have heard this argument before. What about the rest of what I said though?", ">\n\nScottish people should’ve left that union ages ago.", ">\n\nPolls show they don’t want to though", ">\n\nIt's crazy to me that people can be burned at the stake on reddit or twitter for simply having concerns about things like this, and not wanting to go barrelling all in on change when it may cause issues.", ">\n\nGood. The bill was so bad. It gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender. Ok fine. But those opposed said “ok but what if sex criminals get that certificate to get access to women’s spaces” so they put forth an amendment that would ban sex criminals from getting said certificate and that was voted down by Sturgeon & co. Like why? Why not have that provision in there? If they had had that provision in there it would have been less likely for Westminster to block it. Put forth a bill that helps trans people but has provisions in it that make sure sex pests won’t use said laws to access to women’s spaces for obviously bad reasons.", ">\n\n\nIt gave people the right to get a gender certificate that would allow you to go into spaces for your assigned gender.\n\nNo, it didn't. That is already the law, across the whole of Britain. What this bill did was to cut the wait time down to get access to that Certification.", ">\n\nGreat idea, push Scotland further away. It’s Baw-bye from us", ">\n\nTHIS is what gets pushed to my news feed in the word news? All the things going on and problems that desperate need solving and this is what the news has to push to get clicks and views?", ">\n\nSo you think one of the biggest consultations of any uk or devolved legislation didn’t ask people who work in this field?", ">\n\nThis is the party that openly admitted in the 90's that at least one of their MP's was a paedophile and that instead of reporting them to the police the Whip used it as kompromat to control how the MP voted. The party that this decade had an MP that blocked a bill making it illegal to stick a camera up a woman's skirt to take photos. \nIs anyone shocked to find they are still utterly vile?", ">\n\nMeanwhile the TERFs are out there quoting Hitler. I'd like to think we don't have quite as many nutjobs as the US does with its MAGA lot but even so that tragically means we simply have room for more to grow. \nAnd grow they will as what we do have are likeminded politicians running on fumes and the same media empires run by their besties filling up these empty heads with irrational hatred. \nSo as the desperation mounts they will only push harder to grasp onto power for as long as they can. No matter the cost, no matter the damage, no matter how many people suffer. \nEven no matter the long term costs for themselves which as an aside is just fascinating; that they will doom their own future as they fail to appeal to entire generations of younger voters who will never forget the shear cruelty and pure awfulness coming out of one end of the political spectrum.", ">\n\nFuck all of these people who hate trans people so much! We are HUMAN BEINGS!! We aren't up for DEBATE... we are HUMAN BEINGS", ">\n\nI look forward to Scotland telling them to fuck off.", ">\n\nI'm cheering hard for Scotland right now :)", ">\n\nThank god", ">\n\nGood, this stuff is going too far too fast, we need to take a step back and consider the implications of gender fluidity", ">\n\nGender fluidity and being transgender are not the same thing", ">\n\nShame.", ">\n\nDoesn't Scotland want independence after the whole Brexit thing anyway or am I outdated", ">\n\nDamn, Brits really hate trans folks huh", ">\n\nI support 99% of this bill and equal rights for all. However, the ability this bill gives for teenagers to transition before their brain has fully formed and they have moved on from peer pressure, especially in a culture of influencers, is the line sadly. As a parent and ex-teenager this will cause a huge amount of pain and suffering to those kids that regret their irreversible decision. \nWhich isn't uncommon today\nA shame the bill had to include that", ">\n\nAh thanks for that information!!! I'll dig more into it. I watched the breakdown of the bill on Scottish tv (which was pretty pro the bill) and it had a slightly different take", ">\n\nLol and people still try to pretend the UK is 4 Countries when Parliament can pull shit like this", ">\n\nIn my experience most people who comment on the Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland/Ireland VS England type posts are usually Americans. For the most part America’s identity is welded to the events of 250 years ago, so they tend to template match and come up with ‘Scotland needs a tea party’ before they’ve finished the headline.\nThey always seem to see it as that time America wanted independence, not that time the southern states wanted independence", ">\n\nI'm not really a Scottish Independence Advocate \nThough after Brexit I definitely understand their frustrations with the England dominated UK Government", ">\n\nWhy?", ">\n\nFuck the UK", ">\n\nBreak up the UK baby! Give Ireland back to the Irish" ]

[]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend)." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"" ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist." ]

[ "There's nothing inherently wrong with continuing higher education after high school. It's arguably the best time to do so before you have other financial or social responsibilities that would prevent you from being able to dedicate yourself to it.\nThe problem is that everything in our society costs too much. In the past, you could pay your own way through college on a part time job. Hell, you could even buy a car and a house and raise a family on an entry-level wage. The fact that college requires crippling debt is a symptom of an economic failure in society toward the working class, not an inherent issue with a college education. Even factoring that into account, it's still usually better to go to college.", ">\n\nThe average debt at graduation is $29K. Basically a car loan in return for 30-50 years of career benefits, including higher pay, lower chance of unemployment, and preferential hiring.", ">\n\nWhere are you getting that statistic from? Just the housing and meals in my area for a college student is over 12 grand a year, and that doesn't include any tuition.", ">\n\nTo be fair housing and meals is an expense you'd have anywhere if you move away from parents", ">\n\nSure, but if you move out of your parents house to work full time, vs putting it into high interest debt or chipping away at a part time job is a big difference.\nI just calculated in state and out of state tuition for the school I went to, and it puts the rough estimate of yearly costs at 26k and 48k, respectively, for tuition, room and board.\nIt's a state school.", ">\n\nStaying in state is a huge cost savings for sure.", ">\n\nYup, still about a six figure debt if you don't work or get scholarships though, cost of college is insane. I went through the military, and it's sad that it's the only cheap way for decent schools.", ">\n\nMy state school was a bit cheaper although not by much - prob about 22k/yr for tuition and board. Then there were a couple small scholarships was able to find for $500-$3k each.\nI think that price for college is about the max that it's \"worth\". Otherwise getting into over six figure debt isnt a great way to start. Not to mention all of the people who find out they don't even want to use their degree.", ">\n\nYup. I got an engineering degree out of it, but for anything that's not guaranteeing a job of 80+ out of school definitely needs to be brought down on the cost of tuition", ">\n\nIsn't the real issue here the limited understanding of the impact of large financial decisions at 18 rather than anything about college? If a kid comes from a wealthy family that will pay their way, why shouldn't they consider college? If our society subsidized college making it relatively \"free,\" why shouldn't they consider college? The basic idea is that there are other considerations and solutions rather than focusing on people's age.", ">\n\nYou could argue that even if college were free it might not be the right path for everybody, but I suppose one could drop out in that case. Still, I think people should be able to make these kinds of decisions for themselves without feeling social or familial pressure one way or the other.", ">\n\nThe opportunity cost for college is at its lowest point right out of high school. That is the main reason to go then.", ">\n\nYep - if you’re going to go at all, that time immediately after high school is when your remuneration at any job will be at its lowest point, so you’re best applying yourself then. Also, you’re the most-likely to have the least responsibilities/obligations at this time (kids, mortgage, marriage) than any other time in your life.", ">\n\nIt's also when your brain is the freshest. It's just gonna get more and more sluggish after age 20.", ">\n\nYep - your 20s are when you should be applying yourself to learning as much as possible (and that doesn’t only mean in college - lots of ways to learn things). And in your 30s mastering a craft.", ">\n\nYes, very anti-US. I envy you guys", ">\n\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\n\nGap years are so common that most colleges allow incoming students to defer enrollment their first year. \n\n\nA $300k price tag in the US is for private colleges. State college average cost for 4 years is $125k. In some states like NY if your family makes under $125/year tuition is free. Community college is far less at $5k a year. And all of this depends on your income level and how much financial aid you receive. This is all information that is publicly available. If you choose to attend a private college you can’t afford, see my first point.", ">\n\n\nCollege is optional. Nobody has to go at all. Anyone who chooses to go, should be smart enough to research their choices and the implications of student loans. \n\nIt is getting a lot better and things are swinging back to where trades arent being discouraged, but there was a time period where it was college or bust and that was the message that was pushed hard when I was in high school", ">\n\nSame here. But trade schools were designed to keep low income people out of colleges. Have you ever seen a rich person digging ditches? Most of the options seem male-oriented and you have to be in good shape. And dentists and docs can't be made in trade-school", ">\n\nI'll agree they are male oriented, but you don't have to be in shape to be an electrician, plumber, welder, etc", ">\n\nWhen I was in high school (class of 2017), we had military recruiters - quite regularly; they'd set up a booth in the cafeteria at lunch and give out little prizes if you could do 10 burpees or whatever - but no college recruitment, ever. Just to clarify, would you say the same reasoning applies to pressuring them into any sort of binding decision like that?\nThat aside, I would point out a few factual considerations. I don't know if they'll be decisive, but on the chance that they could be:\n\nTypical debt on graduation, for those who have any, is about $30k; $300k would be more like the sticker price (for four years) of an expensive private school.\nChanging their mind about career doesn't necessarily mean more time in college; most majors are applicable to many professions, unless they want to go into a few licensed fields, and changing majors in the first two years often has minimal penalty anyway.", ">\n\nPrecisely. The idea that college is job training is simply wrong. Only a few majors directly lead to jobs; nursing, engineering, and architecture being the ones that come to mind. The rest are all academic disciplines; math, English, literature, history, government, political science, chemistry, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and so on. None of those are direct-to-job majors.\nAnd all majors take essentially the same classes the first 2-3 years. You only really have one year of the four that’s dedicated to your area of study. And about a half year of electives which, depending on what’s chosen, may or may not have anything to do with your major directly.", ">\n\nYour main gripe appears to be that there is a lack of maturity and responsibility among 18-year-olds, and that this prevents them from being able to make decisions regarding college/uni.\nIm not American so i don’t know how exactly the voting age works - but you seem to equate seriousness of the supposed disenfranchisement and legal disadvantages with not being able to drink or smoke so I’ll view them as not very limiting. That notwithstanding, these supposed legal limitations can be set independently of their ability to make decisions, so it’s not fair to assert that they don’t have the ability to judge the implications of going to uni based on such rules. \nYou suggest that it’s flippant to go to college at the age of 18 as one wouldn’t know what they want to do with their lives - which I view as totally illogical because that is where you will go to figure yourself out, most people I know who went to college did not know where they would end up but found their career, passion, etc while there. \nYou also point at this American debt issue, again I can’t make in-depth judgements about it, but these days a college degree is pretty much required for a well paying job. As someone else pointed out, the return on investment is positive so while yeah, the debt is ludicrous, a college degree is better overall. \nThe age of eighteen is the prime time to go to college/ uni imo, your ability to learn does start dropping off in your mid-to-late 20s. Your college years aren’t for making concrete decisions, that’s for later in your life. If the ages of 18 to 22 or beyond are best used learning and exploring and after 25 is when you temper down and mature, then youd ought go to college right out of HS.", ">\n\nDoes this just have to do with high tuition cost? In certain countries, college education is very cheap. You think it is fine in these countries for 18 year olds to go straight into college?", ">\n\nAlmost nobody is taking on $300k worth of loans. \nAs for \"pressure\" the reality is that a college education affords you significant upward economic mobility if you come from meager means, and is critical to remain financially stable if you come from a financially stable family.\nFurther, there are important skills you learn in college that you don't learn in high school. Statistical literacy. Formal/professional writing. Critical thinking. Ability to read technical reports and understand what is being discussed. These skills are all equally taught no matter what your major is, and all are important in most modern careers.\nFurther, college serves as a community for building a professional network. In addition to the network of people you meet in your classes and day yo day life, you also have access to university-organized job fairs where you can talk directly to industry recruiters. \nFinally, regardless of your major, a college degree can be a critical stepping stone towards professional careers such as medicine, law, business, etc., and in fact those diverse major backgrounds can be a boon for applicants to these sorts of programs.\nSo, college is actually a good thing and it is not necessarily a problem that an 18 year old doesn't know precisely what they want to do with their lives.\nThe alternative is also just not as good. Let's say you take 5 years off to work menial jobs before deciding to go to college to pursue a career you love. Now your study skills, reading skills, writing skills, etc are unpracticed for 5 years. You're older and may have other responsibilities in your life that will interfere with your studies (especially kids!). And you're likely to have less time to actually work in your chosen career to pay off those loans. So, you get less out of it and you're less prepared for it. Is that a better solution? I don't think so.", ">\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k. Choosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\nDo most parents pay for some of this? Do most get some sort of financial aid? Do most people pay for at least some college upfront? Yes of course. But not all.", ">\n\n\nFirst, you're wrong that nobody is taking $300k out in loans. It may be a shocker, but there are people who decide not to go to in-state public schools...and when you do this your tuition immediately doubles ... average cost of college is $35k a year, and most students get their degree in 5+ years. That's on average $175k.\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nChoosing to go to top tier school will be more like $65k/year which puts you in the $325k range.\n\nContrary to common belief, Ivys are extremely generous with low-income students. They charge rich kids the full sticker price, but the price for low-income students is very low (Harvard advertises that students from families who make less than $75,000 don't pay anything to attend).", ">\n\n\nIt's possible to accrue this type of debt if you go to an out-of-state private school, but that just means most people probably shouldn't do that.\n\nI mean that's really the OP's point - 17/18 YO are not typically equipped to make a sound financial decision here.", ">\n\nGiven that college education is the best vehicle for social mobility (and this has been backed up a ton in the literature) it seems to me that saying “reconsider going to college because you are too ignorant to make a good financial decision right now” is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The proper intervention is to do a better job educating students on their options.", ">\n\nI felt this way for a while, but the success rate for post-secondary education is fairly decent. I've also heard multiple arguments that many younger people have an easier time with a full-time course load than older people do. In my own experience, coming back to college at age 26 was better for me mentally, but harder financially. I'm 33, and still haven't completed a degree because my financial and mental health problems push me to take extended breaks while I save money and regroup internally. Anecdotally, many young students are used to full-time education, because it's all they've ever known. It's easier for many to just stay in the grind and knock it out before moving on to the next stage in life.\nPersonally, I think the problem isn't that we push kids in too young, it's the way we handle tuition. The US does alright overall, but many countries handle school finances and culture differently, and have better overall outcomes for students.\nLastly, it's worth a nod to your argument in that high school students in the US aren't often made aware of trade schools and other post-secondary education options. Maybe we would see success rates rise if students with talents outside of traditional education were encouraged to pursue those, rather than pushing them into the same system as \"everyone else.\"", ">\n\nPeople CHOOSE to go to expensive schools. My entire college education including room and board for a B.S. in a stem field cost less than 40k.", ">\n\nSmart. You can get an engineering degree at a state school for under $40k.", ">\n\n\nHow is an 18 year old, who is legally barely capable of anything, understand the true implications of such a decision?\n\nMost aren’t spending $300k. You’re off by an order of magnitude. The current average isn’t even over $30k. \nEven at $30k debt that’s an entirely reasonable amount of money to spend to get a $900k lifetime return. \nWhere’s the issue? Spend some now earn more over your lifetime.", ">\n\n\nThere are numerous studies that show that only a small percent of degrees are actually profitable. \n\nCitation needed.\nThe median high-school-only full-time income is well under the 25th percentile bachelor's-or-higher income, so a large majority of four-year graduates out-earn most high-school-only graduates.", ">\n\nWhich means... 84% make less. That's the opposite of your point. Most college grads out-earn most high school grads, like I said.\nFor that matter, the first heading on your first source's full report is \"Earnings Generally Increase\nwith More Education\". And take a look at Fig. 5 - bearing in mind that the median lifetime income with a high school diploma is $1.6M (Fig. 2), every single category of majors out-earns the median high school graduate (the lowest being Education, with a median of $2M). Your source conclusively and consistently supports my claim.\nNo one is denying that exceptions exist.", ">\n\n\nYes but my point was not all degrees are profitble not that collage doesnt give you a chance to make more money. \n\nYou specifically said only a small percentage of degrees are profitable. \"A small percentage\" is not \"not all\". As I said, no one denies that exceptions exist.", ">\n\nIn that case, sure. I don't think it's really disputed that, say, social work or education is poorly paid given the degree requirement, and not a great investment financially." ]